Author Topic: Buff Gunners  (Read 1782 times)

Offline Oleg

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Buff Gunners
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2007, 01:30:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Oleg, bombers historically "cruised" at 40% or 50% of max speed. Fighters historically "cruised" at 75% or 80% of max throttle.


B-24D - max speed 303 mph, cruise 200 mph, = 66%
B-17F - max speed 300 mph (325 with WEP), cruise 200 mph, = 67% (61%)
B-26  - max speed 282 mph, cruise 195 mph, = 69%

Example of bombers with cruising speed below 50%?

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
In this game we have the exact opposite, with bombers practically outrunning almost all but the fastest fighters*

* = unless you already start at 30, which nobody does due to the way this game works


Dont need to exaggerate. Bombers neither outrun nor outdive anything but slowest fighters, except for early war time frame.

Yes, bombers flying at max speed all way is unrealistic and it ever less realistic than fighters flying at max speed because it affect intercept tactics. There is easy solution which was suggested early - limit drones to cruise speed.
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Offline Puck

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« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2007, 12:21:18 PM »
My dad was an Emerson nose turret gunner in the pacific theater during WWII (B24s).  His alternate position was ball turret.

I'll take the slaved guns to reality; in reality a formation wouldn't have a prayer.  There's a reason they flew several hundred bombers in one group and still lost half of them before Hap Arnold got off his stupid high horse and let them put drop tanks on fighters.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2007, 12:32:57 PM »
Oleg I've seen several numbers on the 'Net that show bombers' cruising speeds at 150-160mph, not 200mph.

EDIT: And the B-17F was notably faster than the G, due to a more streamlined nose. I'm not 100% but I think the same is true of the B24D vs the B24J.

Offline Oleg

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« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2007, 01:56:26 PM »
Looks like i didnt payed enough attention to bomber's version we have, heh.

B-17G had max speed 263 mph at 25,000 feet and cruising speed 150 mph at same alt, 57% still closer to 60 than 50.
There are no big difference between b-24D and J.
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Offline SuBWaYCH

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« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2007, 02:38:27 PM »
Hey, guys, stop with the catfighting and act like men about the gunning subject. Everyone has there own qualitys in this game that there good at. Me, im good in corsairs and ponys. Lets stop fighting and and play the game. simple as that :aok :aok :aok
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Offline macleod01

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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2007, 02:58:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SuBWaYCH
Hey, guys, stop with the catfighting and act like men about the gunning subject. Everyone has there own qualitys in this game that there good at. Me, im good in corsairs and ponys. Lets stop fighting and and play the game. simple as that :aok :aok :aok


I agree. And theres a brilliant phrase from a song that I know that fits perfectly here.

'If you dont like the rules, dont play the fu*kin game!'
seeds have been laid...but they arent trees we're growing. we're growing organic grenades!- 321BAR
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Offline FOGOLD

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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2007, 04:35:40 PM »
Its unfair to expect 100% historical accuracy. Hell, I would love to see genuine 1000 plane raids with  full escort lasting 10 hours or more. It aint possible in this game. Likewise, very seldom did the lanc fly in daylight in a group of 3 planes!

Get over it, it's not a bad compromise. It's no worse than having Typhoons fighting Spits and the like.  I still think the p51D should be a perked plane though.:D

Offline 1Way>

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I agree ....this is wrong...more live bodies
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2007, 04:08:31 AM »
I agree with the thread starter....

I hail from the AW days and buffs went un-gunned if gunners were not available.

The option should be available that if a buff driver wants a left seat, a nav, a bombardier and gunners then let him have them....

If thats the case then NO AUTO gun for that buff instance.

I love gunning....and I used to love long buff flights in AW with seven guys in back and great driver in front....

Pizza and beer and lots of chatter on the private com on the climb up and out...

There is nothing....and I mean NOTHING....like seven or eight guys on one plane hanging out and hit strategic targets deep in the evil empire from 35k feet.

And when some hapless fighter climbs up into the rarified air to challenge...the donutwood gets what coming...

This game should have multiple gunner slots and if the users so select...then no triple wing and no autogun...they are on there own....

Thats my two cents...
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 04:18:42 AM by 1Way> »

Offline 1Way>

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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2007, 04:18:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
(although flying a fully manned B-17 through a furball in AW used to be sort of fun).


Understatment of year ^Crsh....I just realized tonight via this thread that we cant have pizza and beer and a big old whoop butt party on some buff or mitch....

Gunning with a full crew of live guys was the pinnacle for me in old AW...

Nothing like it...

The only thing missing back then was the ability to chuck some POS vagrant off the plane who we all knew we shouldn't have let on in the first place....

Semper Fi ~ Never Forget

Respectfully....1WAY>

Offline 1Way>

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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2007, 04:27:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Serenity
Again, lets not man ALL the guns, these things are already damned near invincible!


I would bet that putting humans in place of robots would decrease the lethality of the bomber...

Adding real live humans on a buff in AW only marginally increased your survivability...

The effectiveness of armament on buffs is only truly realized when flown in formation...then each component is a force multiplier for the other...and only then....

Alone they are sitting ducks...

And I will guarantee you that if you put three or four human gunners on a single buff(thats the best one could hope for on a normal basis)....two good fighter pilots will chew that tin can up like a dog at dinner time....

The only place for robots is like it was in AW....drone goonys flying supplies to cripple bases....

Offline Lye-El

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Re: I agree ....this is wrong...more live bodies
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2007, 10:34:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1Way>
I agree with the thread starter....

I hail from the AW days and buffs went un-gunned if gunners were not available.


 


I like this idea! If you can't recruit a person to man a gun position...then you have a unmanned gun position.

Nobody wants to fly with you, you fly without guns. Best of both worlds! Bomber guys are happy because they can crew a bomber if they can find the people. Fighter guys are happy because if the pilot can't find people to crew all three bombers less firepower to deal with. If the Bomber pilot can find no one to fly with him the fighter guys get free kills. :D


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline OOZ662

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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2007, 11:09:53 AM »
Here's a question for that idea though; would you like three new planes or that system? It would take forever for the code to be redone. You'd have to exclude all the fighters from it (which would probably end up buggy and needing a patch), code the ability to change the option, revamp the ENTIRE join system that currently exists, come up with a way that compensates for the lag of everybody sitting in the same spot firing away, on and on...

All without copying the code from their previous game, I'm guessing. I'm pretty sure they don't have the rights to it or else it'd still be supported by them.
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2007, 01:07:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oleg
Yes, bombers flying at max speed all way is unrealistic and it ever less realistic than fighters flying at max speed because it affect intercept tactics. There is easy solution which was suggested early - limit drones to cruise speed.


Personally, I'd have no problem with drones being limited to cruise, or even full speed with no "catch up speed" to maintain formation.

As to max speed runs; players that run their buffs at full speed have either mastered the use of trim tabs, using Kentucky windage in bomb sight, using large salvos, or are failing to use the hyper-accuracy of those bomesights to their fullest.  Full speed hurts accuracy for the most part.

I typically run at 75% to 80% of full power settings on the bomb run.  Most of the bombers in the game have a tendency to keep gaining altitude when under max RPM and MAN.  This throws off a long calibration.  You get the speed even, line up on target well in advance, and have a steady altitude, take a long calibration --- you can use single or dual salvos and hit many more targets on a single mission.

I can salvo 1 or 2  500 lbs bombs from a flight of B-17's from 25K or higher and take out a strat target like dar, ord, or troops pretty consistently.   It's also fun watching would-be interceptors bring planes unsuited to high altitudes, claw their way up to altitude..... just to swat them down.   I've gone back and forth over one to three fields taking my time at killing every single strat target on the base(s).  Result: no troops or sups, no dar, no ord, no DT's and 75% fuel limit.... and usually 3 or 4 kills to land.


Of course, I also advocate the introduction of the German 88mm Flak36 artillery piece to the game, which can, in addition to indirect and direct fire, can be used in the AA role as manned puffy ack up to 35K altitude.

Offline tedrbr

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Re: Re: I agree ....this is wrong...more live bodies
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2007, 01:10:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lye-El
I like this idea! If you can't recruit a person to man a gun position...then you have a unmanned gun position.

Nobody wants to fly with you, you fly without guns. Best of both worlds! Bomber guys are happy because they can crew a bomber if they can find the people. Fighter guys are happy because if the pilot can't find people to crew all three bombers less firepower to deal with. If the Bomber pilot can find no one to fly with him the fighter guys get free kills. :D


If bomber pilots can't find enough capable gunners (most gunners in game are not capable.... they are noobs in two week trials and do noob things), then the bomber pilot does not bother to take up bombers at all.

So, either fighter faces a Death Star (and complains on Channel 200 and Forums), or does not see any easy targets.  Buff drivers turn to attack planes, fighters, or find other entertainment.