Triple Buffs Should GO

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by Krusty
Stoney, as-is they climb way way faster than they ever did historically, because they almost never take more than 25% fuel. They climb and accelerate 4x faster than they ever did in real life, because in real life they always had 100% fuel...

...Realistically, these aircraft would have closure rates of 250+mph (attacking at 400+ mph on a 150mph target), so by the bombers flying 2x their historic speeds, it puts all fighters in a bad position.

150 TAS for bombers is not realistic.  At 20K+, 150TAS has any plane in the set losing altitude, because IAS sinks into the double digits up there.  On the other hand, 150 IAS is approaching 300 TAS.  Further, and I believe Lynx first stated this in another thread, fighters didn't fly WOT all the time either, so its pretty balanced in my opinion.  Last, bomb loads carried during the war weren't typically governed by total bomb rack space.  They took whatever fuel load they needed to get to the target, and made up the difference in max takeoff weight with bombs.  That might be 5,000 lbs for a flight to Berlin, and 8,000 for the sub pens on the French coast.  So, 100% fuel is a moving number depending on mission.

I think the lazer guided bomb site is a bit too much.  I guess my personal opinion would be to bring back the old calibration method and leave things the way they are.  Either that, or drop the formation option.  That way the original catalyst for the change would be restored.  

Sorry for perpetuating the semi-hijack.  Let's start another thread on this subject Krusty?

[999000]

So Hub this "huge advantage" as you would say ...well lets look at the data ..the kill to death ratio ..anyone?
999000

[hubsonfire]

So 2 extra planes, 3 times the ord, and 3 times the defensive armament isn't an advantage?

The K/D is deceiving, because of the many folks who will, as an example you're extremely familiar with, drive formation after formation after formation of buffs NOE into the side of a CV, or, as another example, the guys like Fortress who would do the same thing trying to take out hangars. Waffle used to up formations at a capped field to lure the vulchers into wasting ammo. The BKs used to up formations en masse at a vulched field, figuring they can't get everyone. And, as you know, once the drones are airborn and the lead plane is killed, you're instantly in the air and gunning. I should also add the people like me, who will fly to TT, bomb the neatly aligned rows of spawncampers, then troll for fighters until I'm out of ammo or drones, something that simply wasn't possible before drones were added. Bombers have created a lot of wildly unrealistic situations in AH, and I (and others) don't think they've done anything to improve the game.

And of course, the main point in all of this is that formations were added so carpet bombing in single planes wouldn't be an exercise in futility. But, we don't have carpet bombing, we have nearly the same accuracy we had in AH1 (this might be before your time, not sure), except we're dropping 3 times the ord.

[SkyRock]

one player, one plane!  Fair is fair!

[Stoney74]

Interesting stats.  I broke this down by the three strat bomber types and included the number one killer of each type, and the corresponding k/d for that type.  For last months (Feb) tour.  Here we go:

B-24

Overall K/D:  12071 Kills / 28870 Deaths = .42 K/D
Biggest Killer:  P-51D 1002 Deaths / 2437 Kills = 2.43 K/D vs. B-24

B-17

Overall K/D:  5144 Kills / 15255 Deaths = .34 K/D
Biggest Killer:  P-51D 434 Deaths / 1222 Kills = 2.82 K/D vs. B-17

Lancs

Overall K/D:  6505 Kills / 23125 Deaths = .28 K/D
Biggest Killer:  P-51D 354 Deaths / 1824 Kills = 5.15 K/D vs. Lancs

Some of the other usual suspects had high K/D against all three, but the P-51D shot down more per type than any other aircraft last month.  Surprising, to me anyway...

[Waffle]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Waffle used to up formations at a capped field to lure the vulchers into wasting ammo.

Best Fred Sanford Voice   "Lamont! -  you big dummy!"

waffles bomber radio tuning during these attacks

[hubsonfire]

Tour 23

B17   7085 kills of all models, 10424 deaths to all models.    .68 K/D

B26   6467 kills of all models,  9480 deaths to all models.     .68  K/D

Pony was the lead killer of 17s, Spit IX was the bane of B26s. Interesting.

mmmm waffles

forgot the lazscasters. They didn't do so well

Lancaster III has 2683 Kills of All models
All models have 6578 Kills of Lancaster III  .41 K/D

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Stoney74
150 TAS for bombers is not realistic.  At 20K+, 150TAS has any plane in the set losing altitude, because IAS sinks into the double digits up there.

B-17G: Performance: Maximum speed 263 mph at 25,000 feet, 300 mph at 30,000 feet (war emergency). Cruising speed 150 mph at 25,000 feet.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b17_16.html

[999000]

Stoney good information Sir!.....so even with formations the kill to death ratio is still isn't even close to ONE!..........ok now what you think the kill to death ratio would drop to with single formations???.20?
Maybe we should be talking about making Bombers Stronger?
999000

[Kweassa]

The 2 arguments against buffs are false:

1. Defensive guns are too lethal.
2. Bombs are too accurate.

1. Proven in the crucible of the MA ... buffs are 'Meat on the Table.' Players fight over themselves to get to the bombers for the 3 easy kills. Sure you may die once in a bit, but lets be honest. If you see a low formation of buffs.. you race to get there.

2. The average player can't hit a thing with the bombsite. Sure many dump 36 eggs on a carrier and kill it, but a relative few 'Aces' take the time to learn to do pinpoint bombing from alt. This is a none issue. How many times do you see bombs scattered all over the base vs. the times you see one buff at alt nail something on every drop?

This is just another "I Hate Buffs" temper tantrum.

 My beef is with the second argument. Bombs are indeed too accurate, or rather the process of calibration is too simple. I know you've been playing since AH1 so try and think back on what kind of arguments people had back then.

 Back in AH1, when we had the "laser-guided" 100% on target bombsight, people were complaining of how a single Lancaster can kill off all four fighters hangars from high altitudes with pin point accuracy.

 This led to the implementation of the manual calibration method, which manifested in a very distinct manner in the MA. When the manual calibration was in the game, the 'average' people were having trouble in dealing with pin-point accuracy and therefore the attitudes of the MA buffs changed to a very characteristic method we called "deck-alt suicidal runs". The bombers were changed to a bloated super-jabo, and it became the preferred method of the pitiful bomber geeks who barely took enough time to practice and yet still wanted to knock stuff out so they can become the patriots to their chess pieces. Every where you go would see bombers just running through field ack, spraying their bombload from 2k alt and then getting shot down by either the defenses or the ack.

 The de-facto number one preferred method of closing airfields was by fighter jabo, and it started the days of mass jabo raids.

 ...

 Then came the dumbed-down bombsight, and then recently HTC's decision to strengthen field ack.

 This changed the behavior of the buffs yet again. Fighter jabo effectiveness was reduced due to the strengthened field defenses. In turn, with the help of the dumbed-down bombsight, the high-alt pin-point hangar busting is now officially back in the game. When you fly for any give hour's flight in the peak time of the MA, the number one reason you would observe behind fighter bases being closed down, would be by bombers, and by near pin-point hangar busting.

 Back when we had the manual bombsight, the average player couldn't hit a thing dead on. That's why many bomber pilots were recommended to increase the delay time and 'carpet bomb' the target zone. Instead, they just got rid of the calibration phase entirely and began dropping bombs at deck altitudes.

 Now, the bomb-sight is dumbed down to plain silly levels, and we're right back to where we started in AH1.

[moot]

It's not that hard to deack and close a base with 10 jabos.  DREDger has been leading strikes like that, almost everytime like it's a walk in the park.

There should be a compromise made (since we're already in gamey compromises) to disperse bombs some more, proportionaly to the altitude of the drop.
The wind model is too simple to do the job, so a random dispersion would have to substitute.
Triple buffs definitely shouldn't go.. if anything, with that much more dispersion, they should get a perk option for 5 ship formations.

I've been playing again after 2 years off, and while there are more clueless to ACM, and gamey exploiters like dive bombers and kami jabos (I'm not saying anything about the average "skill"), the quality of gameplay is probably no better or worse..  Splitting up the arenas was a good idea.

I've seen a number of really intense battles over fields.. I can't remember any battles of that length and intensity in the past.  I think it's good proof that guns and horsepower are the same in one respect:  You can never have too much.
More fuel should be thrown into the fire of the arenas' battles.

And the bomber guns' dispersion was debated a long while back, and IIRC, shown to be pretty much spot on as they have been since then.

[SkyRock]

one player, one plane!  all those stats about low K/D'sin bombers is basically due to many times folks just bail over their target after bombs are dropped, which counts as a death.  Many suicide runs in buffs too, so much so that bringing stats up is a moot point!
     It's really simple, one player should only be able to control one plane/vehicle!

Mark

[quintv]

Originally posted by Stoney74
Interesting stats.  I broke this down by the three strat bomber types and included the number one killer of each type, and the corresponding k/d for that type.  For last months (Feb) tour.  Here we go:

B-24

Overall K/D:  12071 Kills / 28870 Deaths = .42 K/D
Biggest Killer:  P-51D 1002 Deaths / 2437 Kills = 2.43 K/D vs. B-24

B-17

Overall K/D:  5144 Kills / 15255 Deaths = .34 K/D
Biggest Killer:  P-51D 434 Deaths / 1222 Kills = 2.82 K/D vs. B-17

Lancs

Overall K/D:  6505 Kills / 23125 Deaths = .28 K/D
Biggest Killer:  P-51D 354 Deaths / 1824 Kills = 5.15 K/D vs. Lancs

Some of the other usual suspects had high K/D against all three, but the P-51D shot down more per type than any other aircraft last month.  Surprising, to me anyway...

Of the most oft used planes in game, the P.51s are the likeliest to be flown at altitude, and therefore in a position to get to the bombers.

At least thats how I read it.

[moot]

Stats are just numbers.. AH is about having fun, not about math.. Is there a math forum around here I missed?  

Now why would players not be allowed to control more than one vehicle?  Towing an 88 with an M3, or slaving the battleship's guns to one sighting tower is nonsense because?  
The only reason we don't get to fire all guns on the ships at once is to leave other players a chance to get a shot at it too.. Comparatively, who is penalized or restricted or whatever, by bomber drones?  
All formations need is more dispersion to reflect the reality of high altitude bombing.   Last night I could not remember how calibrating even worked (2 years off like I said, and I never flew bombers anyway), and after two tries (first one I botched calib + forgot to open bomb doors), could hit targets dead on.
That's not difficult.

edit - You have to give a good reason SkyRock.. it seems Hitech has a different point of view - He has said in the past that he intended to give players GV drones too.

The more firepower the better.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by SkyRock
o  all those stats about low K/D'sin bombers is basically due to many times folks just bail over their target after bombs are dropped, which counts as a death.  
Mark

Only if someone is close enough to get the proxy kills, which is rarely the case with bomb'n'bailers.