Author Topic: M4 Sherman  (Read 3367 times)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 02:32:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Sure, you can get an up-gunned version of the T-34 with a -- what was it? -- 85mm gun? But it wasn't representative of the T-34s as a whole.

Actually, by 1944 it is pretty representative and by '45  was the main frontline Red Army tank.  The T-34/85 was built in the thousands.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2007, 02:38:16 PM »
the sherman is the reason the germans won the war.

:rolleyes:

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2007, 02:38:51 PM »
Going from the discussions held back when the T-34 first came out, I think the 75mm version was built in greater numbers.


If I may go off on a tangent here...

Here's the problem: We started off with 2 of the best tanks in the war, the Panzer 4 and the Tiger. That creates a problem. What can you add that won't totally be outclassed by these?

Hypothetically, say our T-34 had the 85mm. Say we get the Firefly (which was rare, if I remember the arguments against it??) with the gun that can kill a tigr in 1 hit through the front armor...

We've started down a slippery slope where we can't ever add the "weaker" but more common earlier tanks because they just won't ever by able to kill a panzer or a tiger. What if we added a Japanese tank? Can you imagine if we added the M-8 today, in the world of T-34s, Panzers, and Tigers? If it wasn't already in the game, it would never be added. We've set the starting bar so far up that we can never add the things that are below the bar.

I just worry that we'll never get a GV that's below this bar, which has been raised so high.

End tangent.

Offline Charge

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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2007, 02:47:44 PM »
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline Puck

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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2007, 02:52:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
the sherman is the reason the germans won the war.

:rolleyes:


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Offline Charge

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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2007, 02:55:29 PM »
"I just worry that we'll never get a GV that's below this bar, which has been raised so high."

In MA? It would be useful in scenarios, though.

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Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2007, 02:56:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Here's the problem: We started off with 2 of the best tanks in the war, the Panzer 4 and the Tiger. That creates a problem. What can you add that won't totally be outclassed by these?

Hypothetically, say our T-34 had the 85mm. Say we get the Firefly (which was rare, if I remember the arguments against it??) with the gun that can kill a tigr in 1 hit through the front armor...

We've started down a slippery slope where we can't ever add the "weaker" but more common earlier tanks because they just won't ever by able to kill a panzer or a tiger. What if we added a Japanese tank? Can you imagine if we added the M-8 today, in the world of T-34s, Panzers, and Tigers? If it wasn't already in the game, it would never be added. We've set the starting bar so far up that we can never add the things that are below the bar.

I just worry that we'll never get a GV that's below this bar, which has been raised so high.

End tangent.


I say you could add what ever you want now that we have EW, MW, and LW arena.   Perk'em.  Right now the T-34 is the king of tanks in the EW, problem is T-34 vs T-34 is dependant all on luck (at least for me anyway).  I think I remember when the Tiger was released and the cry from the crowd is that the Panzer was dead.

and I think I read on one of those sites today there were 2500 Fireflys built, not exactly rare

Offline quintv

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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2007, 03:38:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
I hate to be the one to add facts,

but the M4A1(76) was rolling off the assembly line in December of 43.  This vehicle was not the wet ammo storage version.  Those (M4A3(76)W were rolling off in March of 44.  Both of these versions saw combat in Europe to include the Normandy campaign.

the M4A3E2 Jumbo was being delivered in June of 44 for the express purpose of engaging the Siegfried line.  They particpated in assaults to include operation market garden.  They had as much as 50% more armour to protect them for frontal assaults on fortified positions.

Sherman VC (aka Firefly) was being delivered in March 44 based off conversions of M4A3 and and M4A4 tanks.  General Alexander (in PRO file WO 204/7433, dated 29th March 1944) stated that the Firefly was a weapon that “I badly need for the successful prosecution of my campaign.”   That is March of 44 and we have yet to invade Normandy, as he is referencing the Italian pushes.

Krusty, read Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank by RP Hunnicutt.  It is an excellent reference on the Sherman.



Thanks for bringing that over. Facts remain there are any number of variants that were produced in large numbers and saw combat, that are a match for the Ausf H and T-34 (which I assume is a 43) on equal terms.  An M4A3(76) would tackle a Tiger in the same way the Ausf H would; with difficulty. They could go further and give us a lightly perked Firely.

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2007, 04:03:10 PM »
The Sherman was a "raw, mass produced machine" with not close the engineering tolerances of the Tiger, Panzer 4.    The T34 series (the 34/85) was in use up until 1989.    The Tiger could have been a MBT for most countries until at least 1975.  

The Sherman was a pile of cow dung, regardless of the "Firefly".   It's armor was a joke.   I'd believe a Vet THAT FOUGHT IN COMBAT with it, before a fast-food eating author.    No exaggerations are needed on the Sherman.
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Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2007, 04:26:12 PM »
Karaya, dont poopoo on the Sherman man... I'll have to send the BoxCat after ya...


Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2007, 04:43:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airscrew
Karaya, dont poopoo on the Sherman man... I'll have to send the BoxCat after ya...


I just deal in the world of FACTS.   ;)
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2007, 04:59:24 PM »
Sherman VC Firefly.

Gonna put hurt on the other tanks, even if it lacks "take it".
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2007, 05:07:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi

Krusty, read Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank by RP Hunnicutt.  It is an excellent reference on the Sherman.



If it's not in Wikipedia, Krusty won't read it.


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Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2007, 05:08:05 PM »
The Sherman became a tank on par with the Panzer IV once the 76mm/17lber gun was mounted, and wet ammo storage was included.  

It is true that the early Shermans had two fatal flaws in Europe.  An obsolete cannon (75mm cannon was based on a World War 1 French field gun), and ammo storage prone to catastrophic explosion.  

However, the reality of tank combat in Western Europe is a much different picture than the statistics would lead on.  The average distance of tank to tank combat was a mere 400 yards.  During the Battle of the Bulge, during many fights in towns and villages, the fighting took place at less than 50 yards.  At these ranges, the first tank to get off a shot is the one that survives.

Secondly, Shermans did not regularly blow up when hit.  Usually a round would penetrate the armor, kill a crewman or two, and the surviving crew would abandon the tank.  Recovery teams would come in after the battle, patch the hole, scrape out the flesh of the deceased, and the tank could be reused.

Thirdly, Sherman tank losses in some cases had nothing to do with the tank itself.  Due to a shortage of tank crewmen, some infantry were given a crash course in operating the M4.  Tanking is like flying, its the crew that makes the big difference.  These tanks operated by infantrymen were quickly lost.

So after the initial fatal flaws were fixed in the Sherman, it became a capable tank.  The U.S. decimated North Korean T-34s with it in the Korean War.  The Israelis also had a very high kill ratio with the Sherman in their subsequent wars.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2007, 05:16:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Going from the discussions held back when the T-34 first came out, I think the 75mm version was built in greater numbers.



34,780 T-34/76 tanks were built in 1940 through 1944 and another 22,559 T-34-85s in 1944–45.


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