So, Sherman VC Firefly....

[Rino]

Originally posted by Karnak
This has absolutely nothing to do with it.

     Then what is "it" about?

[moot]

Modeling the AH Firefly as close to how it most commonly was in WWII.

[Rino]

Originally posted by moot
Modeling the AH Firefly as close to how it most commonly was in WWII.

     What makes the M4 more special than the Tiger or Pzkw IV then?  
Having a pintle mount really doesn't make much difference for air
defense, but makes a HUGE difference to GV SA.  

     Just try the difference between running a Panzer pintle and a T-34 as
regards picking up targets.  If you guys insist on taking away a gun
position that was used on some Fireflies, then at least put in an
"unbuttoned" binocular view that can rotate the same as the MG does.

     The tiger and panzer don't need to be slavishly devoted to WW2
"realism" so why the sherman?  Heck, the tiger runs as fast as the panzer
does..how realistic is that?

[hubsonfire]

There's an odd double standard in here regarding this kind of thing. One thing that is completely unrealistic is accepted as perfectly normal, while something that was uncommon, but perfectly reasonable, is viewed as an intolerable abomination.

[E25280]

Originally posted by Rino
Heck, the tiger runs as fast as the panzer
does..how realistic is that?

Top speed of a PzkwIV was approximately 40kph.  Tiger's top speed was 38kph.  Not too different.  Sherman's speed is right in that range as well.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
There's an odd double standard in here regarding this kind of thing. One thing that is completely unrealistic is accepted as perfectly normal, while something that was uncommon, but perfectly reasonable, is viewed as an intolerable abomination.

Yup

And Im not saying that out of sarcasm for your statement. but rather in agreement with it

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Rino
What makes the M4 more special than the Tiger or Pzkw IV then?  
Having a pintle mount really doesn't make much difference for air
defense, but makes a HUGE difference to GV SA.  

     Just try the difference between running a Panzer pintle and a T-34 as
regards picking up targets.  If you guys insist on taking away a gun
position that was used on some Fireflies, then at least put in an
"unbuttoned" binocular view that can rotate the same as the MG does.

     The tiger and panzer don't need to be slavishly devoted to WW2
"realism" so why the sherman?  Heck, the tiger runs as fast as the panzer
does..how realistic is that?

As they update and add new models they are being a lot more careful to match the historical units.  Like how the hodge-podge Bf109G-10 and Spitfire Mk IX were taken care of.

When the Tiger and Panzer are updated they will be made more accurate too.

You are spot on about the observer mode though.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Pyro
A photo of a restoration doesn't count.  It's not a question of whether a .50 could be equipped, it's a question of whether they did in service.  Of all the photos I've seen of them in action, I have yet to see one with a .50 mounted.  Without some additional corroboration, I'm inclined to pull it.

For those griping about some of the 'realism' responses in this thread.  The above quote is what I was responding too.

I could personally care less about whether a Firefly in AH has a 50 on is or not.  The question was whether they used them in service.  All I've found says they didn't mount them, even though standard Shermans in the same units had them.

In the end it's Pyro's call.  All we can do is supply the info we have or find.

[Edbert]

Originally posted by Karnak
You are spot on about the observer mode though.

Having the commander unbuttoned for observation (or use of AA MG) should expose him to proximity damage though. Even a not-so-near miss of a 1,000 pounder would ruin his unbuttoned day.

[Pyro]

Originally posted by Rino
What makes the M4 more special than the Tiger or Pzkw IV then?  
Having a pintle mount really doesn't make much difference for air
defense, but makes a HUGE difference to GV SA.  

     Just try the difference between running a Panzer pintle and a T-34 as
regards picking up targets.  If you guys insist on taking away a gun
position that was used on some Fireflies, then at least put in an
"unbuttoned" binocular view that can rotate the same as the MG does.

     The tiger and panzer don't need to be slavishly devoted to WW2
"realism" so why the sherman?  Heck, the tiger runs as fast as the panzer
does..how realistic is that?

1- The T-34 does have a commander's position.  A Firefly without a pintle gun would as well.

2- You might want to check into the top speeds of the Panzer IV and the Tiger before pointing that it as if it were a gross misrepresentation.

[Orion75]

What about having the 50 cal as an option in the loadout, it seems some had, some didnt... maybe offset it with a reduced ammo load for the main and coax guns if the 50 was taken? or an extremely light perk? like .5 or so?

Just a thought on this issue
Matt

[Pyro]

Originally posted by Guppy35

I could personally care less about whether a Firefly in AH has a 50 on is or not.  The question was whether they used them in service.  All I've found says they didn't mount them, even though standard Shermans in the same units had them.

In the end it's Pyro's call.  All we can do is supply the info we have or find.

Thanks, that's all I'm looking for.  In the end, there's a world of difference between uncommon and never.  It's not "uncommon" that I have a problem with.  I have to draw the line somewhere.

You could take the same arguments here  and apply them to the hull gun(although nobody really cares about that gun).   There's no reason why a Firefly can't have a hull gun.  They simply removed it to make room for more ammo storage which may well be the same reason for not carrying a .50.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Edbert
Having the commander unbuttoned for observation (or use of AA MG) should expose him to proximity damage though. Even a not-so-near miss of a 1,000 pounder would ruin his unbuttoned day.

Interesting in reading about the last engagement for Michael Wittmann and his Tiger.

The Commander of the Firefly that is credited with killing Wittmann's Tiger and two others, was unbuttoned.  After killing the first Tiger with two shots from the 17 pounder, the other two Tigers traversed their turrets in his direction and fired at him.  Anticipating this he was reversing to get to another position.  A shot from one of the Tigers went over the top of the turret and hit the commander's hatch, slamming it shut on top of the Commander's head.  Disoriented he then climbed out of the tank and was wounded by morter fire.  Another Sherman commander raced to the Firefly and climbed in to finish the fight.  The gunner on the Firefly was able to explode the second Tiger with one shot and finished the third Tiger with two more shots.

But that open hatch played a part and that first Firefly commander had his day ruined by it

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Interesting in reading about the last engagement for Michael Wittmann and his Tiger.

The Commander of the Firefly that is credited with killing Wittmann's Tiger and two others, was unbuttoned.  After killing the first Tiger with two shots from the 17 pounder, the other two Tigers traversed their turrets in his direction and fired at him.  Anticipating this he was reversing to get to another position.  A shot from one of the Tigers went over the top of the turret and hit the commander's hatch, slamming it shut on top of the Commander's head.  Disoriented he then climbed out of the tank and was wounded by morter fire.  Another Sherman commander raced to the Firefly and climbed in to finish the fight.  The gunner on the Firefly was able to explode the second Tiger with one shot and finished the third Tiger with two more shots.

But that open hatch played a part and that first Firefly commander had his day ruined by it

Bronk

[hubsonfire]

Hey Pyro, what I think Phan is asking for, is that you be able to "traverse" in those positions, without having to change view modes, fumble for the keypad, etc, just like you can if an MG is mounted.

The T-34 does not have this.