Author Topic: The Second Amendment  (Read 4225 times)

Offline sgt203

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #150 on: March 28, 2007, 10:42:40 PM »
MT.. Not pikcing on you I respect you having a differing point of view altough I may not agree with you point of view I respect you for being willing to speak up for your beliefs.. Could you pleae answer this question.


 Do you have a response as to why if so many of the States that were needed to ratify the Bill of Rights have included in their own State Constitutions language that EXPRESSLY INDICATES the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, why would they ratify a federal bill of rights that would be inconsistant with their own state constituions???

It would seem to me that this would be highly illogical ( to Quote Mr. Spock) that any state would ratify something which was contradictory to the rights of the citizens of their respective states..

Keep in mind we have to place ourselves in the position as to what the FRAMERS MEANT... not with the mindset of what WE may feel is best based upon the current political agendas which are being advanced..

<<>>


PS.. For the most part im fairly impressed with the level of intellegent debate going on here.. NOT that I thought this community was stupid I just really thought this might evolve into political bickering more than a legal debate...  WTG (for the most part) trying to keep this debate in the legal aspect not the political...

<<>> to all who have posted.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 11:06:05 PM by sgt203 »

Offline sgt203

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #151 on: March 28, 2007, 11:21:08 PM »
I was a little curious about the Miller Case so I looked it up (briefly) and found the following information. Miller (upon reading it) does not seem to wholly address the issue as to if this is an individual right and was quite unclear in the wording of the ruling. ( as this case was based upon interstate transportation of fireamrs Sawed Off Shotguns in violation of the US Code). It is left to open interpretation. I have posted below some court rulings and information in relation to this topic...


The meaning of the Second Amendment depends upon who you talk to.  The National Rifle Association, which has the Second Amendment (minus the militia clause) engraved on its headquarters building in Washington, insists that the Amendment guarantees the right of individuals to possess and carry a wide variety of firearms.

Advocates of gun control contend that the Amendment was only meant to guarantee to States the right to operate militias.

The Supreme Court could easily resolve this debate, but ever since the cryptic decision of U. S. vs. Miller in 1939, the Court has ducked the issue.  
Miller is subject to two possible interpretations.  One, that the Second Amendment is an individual right, but that the right only extends to weapons commonly used in militias (the defendants in Miller were transporting sawed-off shotguns).  The second--broader--view of Miller is that the Amendment guarantees no rights to individuals at all.  

There is also a second open question concerning the Second Amendment: If it does create a right of individuals to own firearms, is the right enforceable against state regulation as well as against federal regulation?  

In 1876, the Supreme Court said the right--if it existed--was enforceable only against the federal government, but there's been a wholesale incorporation of Bill of Rights provisions into the 14th Amendment since then, and it's not clear that the Court would come to the same conclusion today.

In Quilici vs Morton Grove, a case involving a challenge to a Chicago suburb's ban on the possession of handguns, the Seventh Circuit concluded that the right was not enforceable against the states.

The third case posted here is U. S. vs Emerson.  Emerson offers a thorough historical and textual analysis of the Second Amendment supporting its conclusion that the Amendment was intended to protect the right of individuals to own and carry firearms.  In October, 2001, the Fifth Circuit upheld the validity of federal firearm statute at issue in Emerson as a narrowly tailored reasonable restriction on Second Amendment rights--but, importantly, the court held that the Second Amendment does guarantee individuals the right to possess firearms, not just members of "militias."

In 2007, the D. C. Court of Appeals, in Parker v District of Columbia, struck down a Washington, D.C. ban on individuals having handguns in their homes.  With its 2 to 1 ruling, the D. C. Circuit became the nations second court of appeals (following the Fifth Circuit) in finding that the Second Amendment creates an individual right to own firearms.  Most other circuits courts have concluded the Second Amendment protects only the rights of states to maintain militias.  The split in the circuits suggests that the time may finally be ripe for another Supreme Court decision on the issue.


Cases
United States vs. Miller (U.S. SCt. 1939)
Quilici vs Morton Grove (7th Cir. 1982)
U. S. vs. Emerson (N. D. Tex.  1999)

...[T]he Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new government under the Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient for the Federalists in the First Congress as it served, in part, to placate their Antifederalist opponents. The individual right facilitated militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second Amendment’s civic purpose, however, the activities it protects are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual’s enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or intermittent enrollment in the militia.

Judge Laurence Silberman, for the majority in Parker v District of Columbia (DC Cir. 2007)
 

It does appear the Supreme Court cannot continue to duck this issue for much longer and I would not be surprized to see them take up the Case of Parker vs District of Columbia to put this issue to rest.

My personal opinion on this matter is I cannot see the S.C. holding this is not an individual right. However, It will be intersting to see how they view the Miller case as I am sure this will be Cited by the District of Columbia in support of the position they have to right to control firearms within the home.


Edit... By the way I did read the Miller case and found it very intersting the Supreme Court used in the ruling the language of several of the original 13 colonies Constitutions.. However for unknown reasons they used only the ones which I had stated were less than clear (in my original post) and failed to use any that expressly indicate the right is the the individual..

Makes you wonder why a bit doesnt it????
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 11:27:45 PM by sgt203 »

Offline lazs2

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #152 on: March 29, 2007, 09:18:50 AM »
so mt.. only the latest court rulings are pertennent to you or... only the ones that support the position of your candidates and the aclu?

If it is the former... then you need to see the 2007 DC ruling that states beyond a doubt that it is indeed an individual right.

If it is the latter then there is nothing that will convince you.

I would ask tho...  do you believe it is an individual right or was simply put there to make sure that the military could always arm itself?

Who exactly are "the people" these founders refer to?

Do you, like the ACLU believe that "the people" is the government and its agencies?  That would explain a lot so far as the other amendments and the constitution is concerned...  

I simply believe that you have not given this much thought.

lazs

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #153 on: March 29, 2007, 12:36:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Sorry MT.........


It's OK.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #154 on: March 29, 2007, 12:48:31 PM »
If that's all it takes to salve your wounds, make up anything you like!

:)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline x0847Marine

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #155 on: March 29, 2007, 04:45:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ravells
I see Lasz still loves his guns then!

This is what I don't get. We all aim to live in a safe society and let's face it, the US is safer than say....Somalia.  Do you people really *need* all those guns? what for? It's pretty safe in the US isn't it? Or do you think the government is coming to get you...wooo wooo !

Take care Lasz!

Ravs


Safe? heres a map of murders, note 9 in my neighborhood:
http://www.mapbuilder.net/users/mqteclo5043/38003

These are only murders, there are dozens of shootings, or shots fired reports, not on the map.

Heres the murder list, note 1 dead infant, several teens, and a mother of 5:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/

Just last week, as I was walking to get 'a pack of smokes', a dude on a bike exchanged gunfire with a car load of cholos 100 yards from my apt, this is the 2nd shooting on my block in as may weeks.  So LAPD shows up 10 min after everyone is long gone and swoops on this kid riding home from school.

I don't know where you live dude, but the city of LA is the Wild West where people play for real; the police have ZERO legal obligation to protect the public and the idiot politicos have passed laws leaving law abiding folks hanging out to dry.

I'd rather be judged by 12, then buried by 6.


Offline Hornet33

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #156 on: March 29, 2007, 04:50:25 PM »
Firm believer in "Peace through Superior Firepower"



That is all.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline ravells

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #157 on: March 30, 2007, 07:42:18 PM »
God Bless America, x0847 Marine...you might as well be in Mogadishu.

Ravs

Offline VOR

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #158 on: March 30, 2007, 07:52:47 PM »
You're right, ravells. America is a disjointed division of territories controlled by local warlords.

I went out for a bag of potatoes this morning and had to duck and weave from cover to cover to get to the Red Cross potato wagon. Snipers were firing at me the entire way. Luckily for me, some guy on an armed ATV technical offered me a ride home so I didn't have to run the gauntlet twice. I manned the recoilless rifle and took out 4 local thugs while he drove like mad to get us out of the kill zone.

We can only hope for international intervention at this point.

Offline ravells

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #159 on: March 30, 2007, 08:00:14 PM »
By x0847 Marine's account he lives in a place pretty close to that. Or did you miss his post :)

Ravs
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 08:08:46 PM by ravells »

storch

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2007, 09:02:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VOR
You're right, ravells. America is a disjointed division of territories controlled by local warlords.

I went out for a bag of potatoes this morning and had to duck and weave from cover to cover to get to the Red Cross potato wagon. Snipers were firing at me the entire way. Luckily for me, some guy on an armed ATV technical offered me a ride home so I didn't have to run the gauntlet twice. I manned the recoilless rifle and took out 4 local thugs while he drove like mad to get us out of the kill zone.

We can only hope for international intervention at this point.
:rofl

Offline VOR

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #161 on: March 30, 2007, 09:20:27 PM »
No, Ravells. I caught his post. I was just playing along with the hyperbole ;)

On a more serious note, I find it ironic that the areas with the most restrictive measures (like x marine's city/state and our nation's capital) suffer the highest incidences of violence. Don't you?

It makes me think some well-meaning legislators have missed the forest for the trees or are unable or unwilling to address the real problems.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #162 on: March 31, 2007, 09:34:45 AM »
The more liberal socialist an area is in the US and the more gun control...  the more violence and killing.   liberal socialists are not polite people.. they have no respect for their fellows and expect to get something for nothing..  this leads to violence.

Stay out of the blue areas and you will be fine.

lazs

Offline Hornet33

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #163 on: March 31, 2007, 09:53:42 AM »
That's why I thank God I live where I do. I've been making payments on this for the last 3 months and went in and picked it up yesterday after I got paid. Took all of about 5 minutes for the paperwork and I walked out the door with it. I'm sure the liberals would have a heart attack but that's OK. I like it and can't wait to get to the range and do some plinking.



Bushmaster M4A3
Model XM15-E2S  
Caliber .223 Rem
Capacity Shipped with 30 round magazine
Overall Length 32-35 inches
Barrel Length 14.5 inches
Rifling Right-hand twist; 1 turn in 9 inches
Weight w/o Magazine 6.9 lbs
Action Gas operated, semi-automatic
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 09:56:53 AM by Hornet33 »
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Offline ravells

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The Second Amendment
« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2007, 01:59:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VOR
No, Ravells. I caught his post. I was just playing along with the hyperbole ;)

On a more serious note, I find it ironic that the areas with the most restrictive measures (like x marine's city/state and our nation's capital) suffer the highest incidences of violence. Don't you?

It makes me think some well-meaning legislators have missed the forest for the trees or are unable or unwilling to address the real problems.


 I don't have the figures so I don't know what the ratios are.

What's odd, is that as a whole the States has a large proportion of people who do carry guns and a very high level of gun crime compared to say, Italy. Yet Canada (so I understand) has a higher level of gun ownership per person and yet much lower gun crime than America. (I'm not sure about the figures, but I'm reasonably certain that they're right having been cited on these boards a few times many years in the past).

It's possible that Canadians taken as a whole just have a society that is less pre-disposed to violence than Americans? I don't know....just guessing.

Ravs