Explanation please

[Puck]

Originally posted by 68Boomer

Getting waxed by AckAck and other Vets.....SUCKS!

Learning from the encounters w/ the aforementioned Pilot and other top sticks.........PRICELESS!!!

to you all....and.....Thanks!

Getting smeared by the golden arms is itself priceless.  This is why you keep the film rolling; never know when a lesson is going to happen.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Bronk
While I'm no 38 expert. I'd try and get the fight to medium speeds.
250 -300 range I'd say would be best. DO NOT FOLLOW THEM UP, unless you have the E advantage.
Avoid B-n-Z till in that range. Do not get suckered into the ultra low fight where the 38's no torque stalls can be used to an advantage.

I'm sure I'll get corrected.


Bronk

I'm no Spitfire expert but what Bronk said and what Spatula said is what I'd do if the situation was reversed.


ack-ack

[Simaril]

Originally posted by blackdog68

Yes, it is a shock and the crux of my point of view.  .....  However, a/t the actual WW2 flight test docs I could find, and the Aces High flight test evaluation charts, the Spit should be at least equal if not hold a slight advantage in climb rate.
 

There is a huge difference between a sustained climb, and a zoom climb.

Huge. Massive. Important.


In a zoom climb, a plane with excess speed is nosing up -- and is carried by TWO things. The biggest factor will be its momentum -- as in mass times speed. THATS why the 38, and other big birds like the Corsair (my current sweetheart) will rip past the spit in a zoom climb. There's so much mass in motion that it takes an awful lot of climb to slow it down.

The second factor in a zoom climb is how much energy the powerplant adds to the vertical climb while climbing. The spit has an advantage there, and in sustained climb.

ANother point you MUST keep in mind when fighting 38s in the vertical is that rotational factors are neutralized by the contr-rotating props. Other planes get progressively stronger low speed tendencies to fall off toward one side, determined by the direction of prop rotation. Because 38s dont have to fight this, they maintain control far better at the top of the zoom, and stall less (since pilots dont need to input airelon and/or rudder to keep nose on target.)

And welcome to the big leagues. The top pilots in here may have 10-15 years experience in their birds, and may have deep technical flight study. I've found the game to be humblng, but rewarding.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by blackdog68


However, a/t the actual WW2 flight test docs I could find, and the Aces High flight test evaluation charts, the Spit should be at least equal if not hold a slight advantage in climb rate.

 

There is a difference between climb rate and vertical climb.  Just because a plane has a better climb rate doesn't translate to having a better vertical climb as well.


ack-ack

[Vad]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm no Spitfire expert but what Bronk said and what Spatula said is what I'd do if the situation was reversed.


ack-ack

Thank you but I would like to know what would you do in that exact situation. Or, if you are not Spit expert which Spit actions would make you worry in that situation?
You gave excellent analysis of that fight, and only what you missed is detailed advice what he had to do.

The reason why I'm asking that is I actually hardly see any other options but climb. Ok, I'm in Spit, we are Co-e, I see you starting shallow dive with intention to make lead turn with low Yo-Yo.
My options:

1) Flat turn. But merge will be lost for sure, you will zoom, reverse and get better position on top where you will be untouchable.

2) Climb and zoom hoping to rope you, but we saw the result.

3) Go to immel/loop  but it's just give you great shot on the top, and after that position on top.

4) Dive and run. The best but... you know...

So, the question is: what should I do on the first merge in Spit against P38 (or any other combination where I against fighter with better zoom)? What's the best manoeuvre if I want to enforce P38 medium speed turn fight without giving him E advantage in the beginning? Or there is only one way to that - give up Co-e position, let him go on top and B-n-Z me for a while trying to bleed his E?

[FrodeMk3]

Ack-Ack, Simaril, and Hammer have all hit the nail on the head(No pun intended Hammer!) Vert fighting and sustained rate of climb are two different things entirely. Whereas a Spit IX does alright in the Vert, The P-38 is just about King-of-the-hill, being challenged most closely by (possibly) the 109K-4 or G-14. The N1K2 is famous in this game for it's ability to hang on it's prop, so are a coupla others. About the best thing you can do is experiment offline by using max lvl speed over an airfield, and pulling into a vert climb, starting at the same alt as the offline drones. Then, use your F3 view, and see how far away from the icons you climb before you stall.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Vad
Thank you but I would like to know what would you do in that exact situation. Or, if you are not Spit expert which Spit actions would make you worry in that situation?
You gave excellent analysis of that fight, and only what you missed is detailed advice what he had to do.

The reason why I'm asking that is I actually hardly see any other options but climb. Ok, I'm in Spit, we are Co-e, I see you starting shallow dive with intention to make lead turn with low Yo-Yo.
My options:

1) Flat turn. But merge will be lost for sure, you will zoom, reverse and get better position on top where you will be untouchable.

2) Climb and zoom hoping to rope you, but we saw the result.

3) Go to immel/loop  but it's just give you great shot on the top, and after that position on top.

4) Dive and run. The best but... you know...

So, the question is: what should I do on the first merge in Spit against P38 (or any other combination where I against fighter with better zoom)? What's the best manoeuvre if I want to enforce P38 medium speed turn fight without giving him E advantage in the beginning? Or there is only one way to that - give up Co-e position, let him go on top and B-n-Z me for a while trying to bleed his E?

Depends on the attacker.
If their dive is too steep and fast. Wait till they are about 1k out  zoom up above their lvl fight recovery and start regaining E.

Shallower dive, split s with a bit of turn so as not to be predicted. Once again shallow climb on exit to regain some E.

The object is to get them in your preferred speed range.
The thing to note though. If this is a good 38 stick he WONT become impatient  and play your game.

Bronk

Edit: oops didn't see the Co E

[_mattsabs]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm the P-38 driver that he was referring to.  

I guess calling me a cheater back when this took place a few weeks ago and again earlier in the LWA wasn't enough.  I guess this is your "attempt" at proving you're right.

BigR hit the nail on the head, you just ran into someone that was better than you.  No tricks, hacks or cheats...just good ol' flying and knowing how to get the most out of my plane.  

If you had noticed, I was nose down as we were approaching and as you were approaching 800 yards from the merge, I pulled into you so that when you'd pass I'd be on your six, basically a Low Yo-Yo on the merge.  I'm building up E on the merge with the Yo-Yo.  And I'm pulling no more then 3g's so my E loss is almost minimul.  The result is that I've got plenty of energy to match any vertical move you make in the Spitfire Mk IX.  

After the merge, you immediately went into a shallow climb and then after I came around, you went into a zoom climb.  Now, this is going to be a shock to you but the P-38 is far better than the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical.  So,  you went up and I followed you up, gaining on you the entire time.  As you were approaching stall speed, you attempted what looked like a High Yo-Yo.  At this point, I had two choices.  1) I could have continued my vertical climb pass you and then come down on you from above or 2) I can kick full rudders with opposite aileron and skid my plane and burn excess energy to keep on your six.  I decided to go with option #2.

As you were coming over the top of what appeared to be an attempt at a High Yo-Yo, I had already bled any excess energy I had and was approaching the stall, rolled by plane over on its back and as you were coming down from the Yo-Yo, had a beautiful shot on your Spitfire Mk IX.  The end result was catastrophic, which is usually the case when you're plane gets hit by close to 15-20 20mm rounds.  Actually think that was one of my better shots, hit with almost the entire burst.

The merge tactics I used on this fight is what I most commonly use in all my fights, so I really don't have any problems replicating the merge.  Nor was my merge a flat turn, as I always use transient turns (helps throw off the aim if someone's on your 6) and I always use the vertical in some form on the merge.


Now I hope you learned a few important lessons.
-Just because you get shot down and can't understand how the other guy was able to out fly you, doesn't mean they are cheating.
-Not smart to use the vertical against a P-38 unless you have overwhelming energy advantage
-You got your arse kicked.  It's really that simple.


ack-ack

wow there is really no other way to describe this other than pure domination.

[Bronk]

When in a Mk IX And I merge with a co alt But unknown speed 38...
I have learned it is best not to. That is to say I wait to see what he does 1st.
If he does the usual 3000000 zoom climb, I'll shallow climb away at around 250-270 mph.  Once he starts his boom at me again I'll reverse direction go lvl avoid the ho. Rinse and repeat till his zoom is gone. Then it's fight on.

If he makes an immediate  reversal I'll reverse in such a way to get my speed in that  Mid speed range. If I am way to fast Imel with a bit of off angle, chandel, any type of climbing reversal.

To slow split s, low yoyo that type of thing.
The thing to remember is that mid range speed is where the Mk IX likes it best.


Bronk

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Vad
Thank you but I would like to know what would you do in that exact situation. Or, if you are not Spit expert which Spit actions would make you worry in that situation?

Spiral Climb.  With the spiral climb the Spitfire is able to counter my better vertical performance with their better climb rate.  Against the Spitfire Mk IX, this is something that I really don't like to see when I'm in a P-38.  If the Spitfire Mk IX starts a spiral climb on me, he's forcing me to bleed off E just to get my nose in tight enough for a shot.  The best I can do in that situation is to ride my flaps just above the stall point and try and keep my nose upward into the turn and hope the Spitfire driver gets bored and rolls over into a Split-S but that rarely happens.  Most experienced pilots will keep it going sufficient enough to build enough seperation to pounce on me as I pretty much float above stall speed, totally exposed and ready for my approaching doom.

Now, like Zoom Climbs, the Spiral Climb is useless and will kill you if the other guy has more Energy and is able to keep up.  So don't think this is the 100% sure way of defending or fighting a P-38 because it's not but it is a viable tactic to use and will give you a reasonably good chance at coming out of it alive.  But with all things in life, YMMV.


ack-ack

[Vad]

Originally posted by Bronk
When in a Mk IX And I merge with a co alt But unknown speed 38...
I have learned it is best not to. That is to say I wait to see what he does 1st.
If he does the usual 3000000 zoom climb, I'll shallow climb away at around 250-270 mph.  Once he starts his boom at me again I'll reverse direction go lvl avoid the ho. Rinse and repeat till his zoom is gone. Then it's fight on.

If he makes an immediate  reversal I'll reverse in such a way to get my speed in that  Mid speed range. If I am way to fast Imel with a bit of off angle, chandel, any type of climbing reversal.

To slow split s, low yoyo that type of thing.
The thing to remember is that mid range speed is where the Mk IX likes it best.


Bronk

Thank you, it is exactly what I want to know.

So, general advice is to give up initiative and in the most cases top position and  E. You need to slow down to get into mid speeds but you can't zoom so you will lose relative E at the beginning of the fight.

It sounds reasonable but unusual, I have to get accustomed to this idea.
Main problem here is that 99% of MA population are not akaks, and old good lead turn with zoom works great against any planes. In 1% of fights when I understand that it was mistake it's too late ...

[Vad]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Spiral Climb.  With the spiral climb the Spitfire is able to counter my better vertical performance with their better climb rate.


ack-ack

It is the second step I believe. On the first seconds of the fight immediately after merge you would out zoom any spiral climb and attack from the top.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Vad
Thank you, it is exactly what I want to know.

So, general advice is to give up initiative and in the most cases top position and  E. You need to slow down to get into mid speeds but you can't zoom so you will lose relative E at the beginning of the fight.

It sounds reasonable but unusual, I have to get accustomed to this idea.
Main problem here is that 99% of MA population are not akaks, and old good lead turn with zoom works great against any planes. In 1% of fights when I understand that it was mistake it's too late ...

And there is the crux of the problem. People get use to pork auger dweeblets flying the 38 and think "mmmmmmmmmmmm  fresh meat" then it's murdr or akak  and they cry foul.
While what I suggested wont always get you the win against a good 38 stick. With practice you should last longer and make it a fight.
But if its just the pork auger dweeb in it  you'll take him down anyway, just in a few more turns.

All I can say is that is what I do when I fly the Mk IX . I'm a bit out of practice with it since I started flying the 38 though.


Bronk

[Vad]

Thank you guys.
Actually I fly Spits rarely and only in middle war arena, I have another favorite bird in LW but you gave me a lot of info to think about. P38 has always been my nightmare.

[Scca]

Originally posted by blackdog68
[....]What started last night is the 'BS' I uttered about the 3 formation laser guns on bombers.  The exact same thing complained about on here ad nauseum.  I'm sorry, the 3 formation laser gun is NOT historically accurate.[...]

You were just mad because you lost a 262...

Just a suggestion, turn off 200 for a while.  I rarely have 200 on because it's most of the time used to belittle someone.  I even find my self whining when I am sent back to the tower by someone better than me (happened last night).

I had already pinged you and you were smoking, I guess the 3 pings I got at 800yds was enough to finish the job.

You had a great attack plan on the bombers, until you pulled up under the formation and just sat there.  Had you continued as you were, you would have wasted the formation for sure.

As I did last night