Author Topic: Pushing the A26  (Read 1779 times)

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Pushing the A26
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2007, 12:06:44 PM »
Remember, A-26 is on the planned Perk unit list.

It won't be free.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Pushing the A26
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2007, 12:20:24 PM »
FYI: somebody said the B-25 has the same bomb load. It does not. Early models of the 25 had 2000lb loads, and later models had 3000lb loads.

Also, the B-25s guns are all centrally located, and the A-26s are 20 feet apart outboard of the engines on the wings. Given that context, and the limited ammo loads for those guns, I think the gun options are almost the same.

The A-26 did perform better, and carry more, faster, and climbed faster, but personally I agree with Dan. It saw very limited use. While I oh-so-much believe we need perk bombers, I think this one can wait maybe.


Hey, this vote is a win-win situation. I like ALL the choices, and there's no way I'll be unhappy with what we get. Just, in the context of "If we get to choose" -- I'd rather choose something else. Just my opinion.

Offline TexInVa

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
Pushing the A26
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2007, 07:54:14 PM »
Sorry for my stats, Krusty. I got them from wikipedia.

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
Pushing the A26
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2007, 08:35:48 PM »
Quote
Karnak     "Remember, A-26 is on the planned Perk unit list.
It won't be free."


Most buff drivers have lot's of points they don't bother to spend on Arados.

Having a second perk ride may lessen the "bomb-and-bail" tactics many buff drivers have taken up, and other complain about, since now they don't need their perk points.  Give buff drivers something else to spend perks on.

If adding another American plane to plane-set, might as well be a perk-worthy ride, otherwise, start filling out the rest of the country plane-sets.  American set already gonna get the Firefly version of the Sherman.  

Quote
Krusty     FYI: somebody said the B-25 has the same bomb load. It does not. Early models of the 25 had 2000lb loads, and later models had 3000lb loads.

Also, the B-25s guns are all centrally located, and the A-26s are 20 feet apart outboard of the engines on the wings. Given that context, and the limited ammo loads for those guns, I think the gun options are almost the same.

The A-26 did perform better, and carry more, faster, and climbed faster, but personally I agree with Dan. It saw very limited use. While I oh-so-much believe we need perk bombers, I think this one can wait maybe.


A-26 Invader carried 4,000 pounds internally, and 2,000 lbs on wings.
A-26 Invader had 6 (internal) or 8 (gunpods) x .50 cal x 400 rpg on the wings.
A-26 Invader had 2 (C-model), 6 (early version B model), or 8 (most common B- model) nose-mounted x .50's x 400 rpg  
I'm sure HTC will allow us to calibrate the forward firing guns, so their locations are moot.  Half of those guns will probably be in a separate bank than the primary fire button, like most planes, so you don't need to fire all at same time.

If they do go with the A-26 Invader, we can get two planes for work of one:
* Glass-nosed C model with bombsite and 2 nose mounted .50's meant for level bombing/pathfinder role, and with a lower perk cost per plane.
* Solid-gun-nose B-model for a higher perk price for the attack role.

Fun factor.  We gonna add a plane, let's vote for a fun one!
This would be a fun plane to have to:
* hunt GV's.   Rockets, bombs, and guns....oh my!  A counter to new Firefly!
* A-26 Invader could carry up to 14 X 5" rockets.  Fourth of July folks!
* Hunt bombers.   14 - .50's + 400 rpg + 355 mph (at most) top speed = shredded Lancs
* Run penetration raids against ord and dar. Ki-67 is good at this.... A-26 be better.
* Kill towns.....and vulch
* Deack fields.....and vulch
* Kill CV's.
* HO anyone stoopid enough to come at an Invader from dead ahead. 14 forward firing  .50 cals. Mmmmm. Like a WWII version of an A-10 Warthog. Burrrrrrppp....booom....   Considering all the HO's and HOing in the arenas, you'd think this alone would sell the plane to the masses.

Some limitations: that the plane did have was a shorter range than the B-26 bombers, and limited to about 22,000 feet service ceiling, so you won't find them up high.  Also, only two defensive barbettes with 2 X .50 X 500 rpg each. Also, visibility not the best from the cockpit for the attack role.  But, these are minor compared to the loadouts available.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 09:10:59 PM by tedrbr »

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
Pushing the A26
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2007, 09:50:22 PM »
For those that are not all that familiar with the Douglas A-26 Invader, a few details that could be incorporated into an AHII version of the plane:

Details:
Type: Attack/Medium Bomber

Performance
Normal Range: 1400 miles (1,200 nm, 2,300 km)
Cruise Speed: 284 mph
Max Speed: 355 mph (308 knots, 570 km/h) at 15,000 feet
Ceiling: 22,100 feet (6,700 m)
Rate of climb: 1,250 ft/min (6.4 m/s)
An altitude of 10,000 feet could be attained in 8.0 - 8.2 minutes
Wing loading: 51 lb/ft² (250 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.145 hp/lb (108 W/kg)

Armament
Guns - typical, late model A-26B
8× 0.50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns in the nose
6 × 0.50 in M2 machine guns  (internally mount)
2× 0.50 in M2 machine guns in remote-controlled dorsal turret
2× 0.50 in M2 machine guns in remote-controlled ventral turret
Bombs: 6,000 lb (2,700 kg)-4,000 lb in the bomb bay and 2,000 lb external on the wings.

C-model typically was built with 2 forward firing .50's, plus 2-twin barbettes and additional guns were added to the wings once delivered for operations in the field. C-models performed as pathfinders and observation aircraft often, and were fewer in production numbers.

Original A-26B from Original Pilot’s Training Manual was listed as having 6 configurations for the "All Purpose Nose" (The B model) – not counting the original two "4-pack"  gun pods (8 total .50's) option that could be mounted under the wings (before the 6 internal .50's - 3 per wing - were done with/after 45-block production):

* 6 -.50s (later upped to 8) – most commonly ordered configuration
* 1 - 37mm and 4 - .50's
* 1 - 37mm and 2 - .50's
* 2 - 37mm’s (gah!)
* 1 - 75mm and 1 - 37 mm (Racks held 20 rounds for manually loaded 75mm)
* 1 - 75mm and 2 -.50's (first 30 planes initially ordered and deployed with USAAF from the factory in this configuration)

Unsure if any of the other configurations were ordered, deployed, or retrofitted in the field later. That was one great thing about the A-26, you could swap nose components in and out in hours.

Ammo capacity reported to be 500 rounds-per-gun in the barbettes, 400 rounds-per-gun in the nose.  75mm had racks for 20 rounds, manually loaded by loader in jump seat in cockpit.  Although initial order came with 75mm and flew in PTO and ETO in evaluation flights, I've no record of the 75mm being used in combat.

Ordanance:
Up to 6,000 lb, consisting of 2 × 2,000 lb max in 2 internal bays, plus 4 underwing hardpoints rated at 500 lb each. Total of 20 hard points, but maximum of 16 could be used at any one time points.

Loadout was generally:
* 4 × 1,000 lb, or
* 8 × 500 lb, or
* 8 × 250 lb, or
* 12 × 100 lb internal

* 4 × 500 lb or 4 × 250 lb under the wings additional typical, 4 X 100 lbs possible

Torpedoes/rockets: 14 × 5 inch rockets under the wings instead of bombs.
(Original Training Guide also lists 2 torpedoes carried internally (doors open), but I don't think it was ever used this way in WWII, since by that time, Axis fleets were mostly done, and an A-26 low and slow for torps is not a good use of that plane.)

Diving Speeds:
26,000 lbs gross --- 425 IAS
32,000 lbs gross --- 400 IAS
35,500 lbs gross --- 360 IAS

Fuel capacity
Internal 6.056 l, plus provision for 1.173 l if the ventral barbette was omitted (mostly the Pacific theater) Fuel capacity external 1.741 l in two drop tanks.
Normal fuel consumption at cruise approx 150 GPH
• Main Tanks, 300 gals each
• Aux Tanks 100 gallons each
• Bomb Bay Tank 125 gallons
Total Normal = 925 gallons

• Ferry Tank 675 gallons
Total Ferry = 1600 gallons
• Ventral barbette was dropped for an additional fuel tank with 258.1 Imp gal (310 US gal/1.173 l) in some cases for Pacific operations.
• Option of 460 US gal fuel in two wing mounted drop tanks, 1 hard point each.

********************************************************
Envisoned A-26B and A-26C in-game.

With one airplane modeled, you can actually create two perked bombers for use in-game to spend bomber perk on.  The only real difference was the nose configuration.

A cheaper, C-model, meant for level bombing attacks with medium bombers. Priced at about 1/3rd the cost of a Ar-234 Arado in perks?  Would have the Norden bomb site.

A more expensive B-model, attack bomber, priced at about 1/4 the cost of a Me-262 in perks?  Suppose trying to use the Norden bombsite from solid nose would just give you a black screen, or leave it enabled since buff drivers would not have Pathfinder A-26C's as lead bomber to control the drop, as they normally did.

The A-26 won't dominate in-game as it did in the real theaters of combat, Invaders did not have to contend with swarms of La-7's, Ponies, Spit-16's, and Niki's during the war. The gun-heavy B-model would be the "lord of the HO", but it won't take long for folks to figure that is the wrong direction in which to approach an Invader.  And as any perk icon does, it will invite attacks.

Ordnance Load out for both the B and C models would be the same.
Internal:

* 4 × 1,000 lb
* 8 × 500 lb
* 8 × 250 lb
* 12 × 100 lb
* 2 x torpedos (an option, but probably not ever actually used, so this is a throwaway if needed for Hangar screen simplicity)

Wings (here's were it gets convoluted, and choices need to be made for Hangar screen simplicity):
* clean wing
* 2 - 230 gallon drop tanks
* 14 x 5-inch rockets
* 8 X 5-inch rockets and 2 -230 gallon drop tanks
* 4 × 500 lb
* 4 × 250 lb
* 2 x 500 lb and 8 x 5-inch rockets (yes, they would carry mixed loads like this, have pics)
* 2 x 250 lb and 8 x 5-inch rockets
(not sure wing could take load of fuel tank and partial bomb combination -- doubt it -- , so I don't use it here)  A lot of variety here is possible, a very versatile platform.

Ammunition for C-model:
500 rpg for each twin-.50 barbette
400 rpg for 2 forward nose .50's and 6 wing-mounted .50's

Ammunition for B-model:
500 rpg for each twin .50 barbette
400 rpg for 6 wing-mounted .50 cal MG
options for nose
* 6 - nose mounted .50's w 400 rpg
* 8 - nose mounted .50's w 400 rpg
* 1 - 75mm cannon w 20 rds, 3-5 second load time (manual) plus 2 x .50's with 400 rpg
(no 37mm options ever ordered from factory I am aware of, and may have been originally intended for the Lend-Lease Program....so I left them out).


Some AHII pilots been wanting a big-cannon armed bomber for a long time..... here it is.   Maybe.  75mm with 20 rds and slow manual loading. 30 for sure were built and fielded..... no idea what conversions were done later on.  No proof that they were ever used in combat either, or fitted to any later model A-26.  30 75mm equipped A-26 Invaders were shipped to the PTO and ETO and evaluated there.  The 75mm was intended for anti-shipping operations, and USAAF later found that 14 - .50's with API rounds was more effective than 1 manually loaded 75mm in that role.   I simply present it as an interesting option.  The twin 37mms would be better IMHO, but none were ever produced or shipped in that configuration.  Doubt any were retrofitted that way in the field.   It would be interesting, but not necessary.

Had the nukes not been dropped, the A-26 Invader would have seen a lot more action over Japan.  Possibly they may have seen the return of the 37mms or 75mm configurations for some missions.  But, even limited to .50's, the rest of the ordnance options and two main versions still makes for a bag of tricks for buff drivers and attack plane pilots to play with.

Offline eh

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 314
Pushing the A26
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2007, 10:07:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
bah!
Another 1945 "deployed a week before the war ended and attacked routed enemy" plane. As cool as it may be, give us planes that actually fought WWII !


The first service delivery of the A26 was in December 1943, and it was in action in Europe prior to D-Day.

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
Pushing the A26
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2007, 10:15:28 PM »
quote:Originally posted by bozon
    bah!
    Another 1945 "deployed a week before the war ended and attacked routed enemy" plane. As cool as it may be, give us planes that actually fought WWII !

Quote
Originally posted by eh
The first service delivery of the A26 was in December 1943, and it was in action in Europe prior to D-Day.


Douglas XA-26 prototype first flew July 10, 1942, and saw military service from August 1943 (initial deliveries to USAAF) until final retirement from Air Guard in 1972.  IIRC, the December 1943 date was when they deployed the first 30 planes forward to ETO and PTO for evaluation by front line units.

They began arriving in England in September 1944 for assignment to the 9th Air Force and entered combat two months later on Nov. 19, 1944. Invaders began operations in the Pacific Theater in January 1945. Invaders saw combat for 7 months in the European Theater, and 8 months in the Pacific Theater.

2,448 – 2,452 to 2,502 Aircraft were built (sources vary, and may or may not include prototypes).

By the end of WWII, 48 squadrons of A-26's were in operation among the Fifth(Far East Air Force), Seventh (WPTO), Ninth(ETO), and Twelfth (MTO) Air Forces, at the very least.
This included the 8th and 13th in the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers"; the 386th's 554th Bomb Squadron; and the 319th Group after assigned to the 7th AF at Okinawa.

Offline eh

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 314
Pushing the A26
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2007, 01:34:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
quote:Originally posted by bozon
    bah!
    Another 1945 "deployed a week before the war ended and attacked routed enemy" plane. As cool as it may be, give us planes that actually fought WWII !

 

Douglas XA-26 prototype first flew July 10, 1942, and saw military service from August 1943 (initial deliveries to USAAF) until final retirement from Air Guard in 1972.  IIRC, the December 1943 date was when they deployed the first 30 planes forward to ETO and PTO for evaluation by front line units.

They began arriving in England in September 1944 for assignment to the 9th Air Force and entered combat two months later on Nov. 19, 1944. Invaders began operations in the Pacific Theater in January 1945. Invaders saw combat for 7 months in the European Theater, and 8 months in the Pacific Theater.

2,448 – 2,452 to 2,502 Aircraft were built (sources vary, and may or may not include prototypes).

By the end of WWII, 48 squadrons of A-26's were in operation among the Fifth(Far East Air Force), Seventh (WPTO), Ninth(ETO), and Twelfth (MTO) Air Forces, at the very least.
This included the 8th and 13th in the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers"; the 386th's 554th Bomb Squadron; and the 319th Group after assigned to the 7th AF at Okinawa.


I stand corrected, and rest my case!

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
Pushing the A26
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2007, 06:27:02 PM »
Terrorism being so popular these days, maybe we ought to threaten the fitr pilots to give us buff drivers a second perk ride to spend points on.

The Buff Drivers Perk Ride Voting Platform.....

....vote for A-26B Invader.....

....or we "bomb and bail" your fighter hangars.

"All your FH's Are belong to us!"

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
Pushing the A26
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2007, 11:17:14 AM »
Vote A-26 Invader!

Vulch till you drop!  Terrorize GVr's!  Spend those buff perk points on something!

Offline Vudak

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4819
Pushing the A26
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2007, 12:46:33 PM »
My boss flew one during the war.  When his grandkids used to come up during the AW days, I'd set up a nice little mission for them in one, and get paid to screw around all day.

Oh, this plane has my vote, alright :aok
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
Pushing the A26
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2007, 08:06:10 PM »
Former AW pilots may be what eventually saves the A-26 to be added to the game.

Offline Squire

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7683
Pushing the A26
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2007, 08:21:30 PM »
Does nothing a bombed up P-47N cant do already, or an A-20G, we hardly need 3 versions of the Boston/A-20 family.

Thumbs way down to the A-26. It adds exactly nothing to the game.
Warloc
Friday Squad Ops CM Team
1841 Squadron Fleet Air Arm
Aces High since Tour 24

Offline Wolfala

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4875
Pushing the A26
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2007, 08:39:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
Does nothing a bombed up P-47N cant do already, or an A-20G, we hardly need 3 versions of the Boston/A-20 family.

Thumbs way down to the A-26. It adds exactly nothing to the game.


U know you guys are still using A-26's as Borate bombers right?


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline 1Boner

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Pushing the A26
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2007, 10:07:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
Does nothing a bombed up P-47N cant do already, or an A-20G, we hardly need 3 versions of the Boston/A-20 family.

Thumbs way down to the A-26. It adds exactly nothing to the game.



 nothing?

which plane would add more?????

b-25?   c,mon.

p-39? please.

most guys in the game play lw.

its a fact.

a-26 could be used more diversely than any other plane on the list.

a-26 ==== fun.


my humble opinion,

Boner:cool:
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP