Author Topic: The Armed Citizen  (Read 1410 times)

Offline Charon

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The Armed Citizen
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2007, 10:52:52 PM »
Quote
I included Suicides because while someone earlier said something like "they'd just jump of buildings" or something to that effect... its not necessarily true. Women actually have more suicide attempts then men, but the successful suicide rate is nearly 5x greater for men than women. Thats because men use means of higher lethality, ie guns.


But it is kinda true. Maybe women have more "calls for attention" than men. Some people, for a variety of reasons, want to really kill themselves while others just want some attention. If they want attention, they make sure it something with low immediate lethality. If not, well, they just do it. Use a gun, step in front of a train, the running car in the garage... whatever. Take the woman who killed three innocent people near Skokie last year by ramming their car with hers when she tried -- unsuccessfully -- to check out. Given the area I imagine she couldn't easily access a firearm, or found them too scary. Too bad for the bystanders.

It's not like sticking a pistol in your mouth and pulling the trigger (or jumping off a building or stepping in front of a train, etc.) is a cry for help. You really want to go, versus dowining a bottle of prescription meds 15 minutes before mom and dad return from work.

But does gun possession in society lead to a particularly high suicide rate? Not really good research below on the specific issue, but on the surface apparently nothing obvious. If you look at percapita suicide rates (per 100,000) all of these countries lead the US. I would imagine virtuall all of these have lower gun ownership per capita, in some cases MUCH lower. Yet, for those who want to go they find a way and in the US a gun is certainly a viable choice...

Lithuania     73.7     13.7
Russian Federation    72.9    13.7
Estonia    64.3    14.1
Latvia    59.5    11.8
Kazakhstan    51.9    9.5
Hungary    49.2    15.6
Belarus    48.7    9.6
Slovenia    48.0    13.9
Sri Lanka    44.7    16.6
Finland    38.7    10.7
Ukraine    38.2    9.2
Croatia    34.2    11.3
Republic of Moldova    30.9    6.2
Switzerland    30.9    12.2
France    30.4    10.8
Austria    30.0    10.0
Luxembourg    29.0    9.8
Belgium    26.7    11.0
Cuba    25.6    14.9
Bulgaria    25.3    9.7
Denmark    24.3    9.8
Japan    24.3    11.5
Poland    24.1    4.6
Czech Republic    24.0    6.8
New Zealand    23.6    5.8
Germany    22.1    8.1
Yugoslavia    21.6    9.2
Canada (Details)    21.5    5.4
Romania    21.1    4.3
Mauritius    20.6    6.4
Sweden           20.0     8.5
United States of America (Details)    19.3    4.4

[edit: personally, if I ever did want to check out -- AND I DONT--I think a firearm would be too risky, with a high potential for an even more miserable life after a failed attempt. A train or a tall building is hard to screw up]

Charon
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 10:59:00 PM by Charon »

Offline DYNAMITE

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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2007, 11:05:45 PM »
there's no doubt that people who really want to kill themselves will find a way to do it...

But the people that make suicidal gestures for attention with a gun are more likely to accidentally do it right.  Thats all.  

But you make a good point Charon.


Oh btw, I'm having trouble interpreting the stats you listed... take the US for example... is that saying there are 19.3/100k  or 4.4/100k.

Thanks-

Offline quintv

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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2007, 11:13:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DYNAMITE
there's no doubt that people who really want to kill themselves will find a way to do it...

But the people that make suicidal gestures for attention with a gun are more likely to accidentally do it right.  Thats all.  

But you make a good point Charon.


Oh btw, I'm having trouble interpreting the stats you listed... take the US for example... is that saying there are 19.3/100k  or 4.4/100k.

Thanks-


If someone decides putting a Revolver up to their temple is a good, "safe" way to cry for help/attention.

Maybe the gene pool is better for them having made their point,,,,albeit a little too well

Offline Charon

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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 11:17:42 PM »
Quote
Oh btw, I'm having trouble interpreting the stats you listed... take the US for example... is that saying there are 19.3/100k or 4.4/100k.


Sorry, that's male/female

Interestingly, it seems to run 4-1 or 3-1 pretty consistantly throughout the world, though in a few cases it gets close to a 2-1 ratio and in others 6-1

Charon

Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2007, 04:35:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Stats in Criminal Justice are skewered to benefit either side of the room.   I ignore em.


Our new mayor demanded a drop in crime... from that day forward we no longer took felony burglary reports on 'beer runs' unless there were investigatable leads. We also stopped taking 246PC reports unless we found bullet holes / investigatable leads.

In one month wouldn't ya know, the C.O.P proudly reported to the city counsel that through his leadership and the 'relentless' efforts of his officers, felony crimes went down 15% and "gun related" crimes were down over 20%.

Everyone clapped.

Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2007, 07:24:17 AM »
To my way of thinking the suicides that happened and a gun was involved are actually in the number of succesfull shootings where the outcome was excactly what was wanted. They're NOT accidental deaths. Those folks wanted to die and they used the proper tool to make that happen. The guns did their jobs.

End of story.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline eagl

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« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2007, 07:57:55 AM »
echo reply | /dev/tasteless

Halle Berry tried to kill herself using the car in garage method...  Just think, if she'd used a gun we would have been spared "catwoman".
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline SH33P

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« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2007, 09:03:45 AM »
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b430b4e1300.htm


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Doctors are 3 times as deadly as guns. So why is the AMA targeting firearms?

Culture/Society Editorial
Source: NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
Author: Steve Dasbach
Posted on 07/04/2001 05:25:50 PDT by winner45
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===============================
NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
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World Wide Web: http://www.LP.org
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For release: July 1, 2001
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For additional information:
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Doctors are 3 times as deadly as guns.
So why is the AMA targeting firearms?

WASHINGTON, DC -- Doctors kill three times as many people every
year as guns do -- which is why the new head of the American Medical
Association should stop crusading against guns and target incompetent
physicians instead, say Libertarians.

"Message to the AMA: Doctor control would save far more lives
than gun control," said Steve Dasbach, national director of the
Libertarian Party.

"Instead of adopting a political agenda and working to
eliminate the Second Amendment, doctors should adopt a medical agenda
and work to eliminate deadly, derelict doctors."

Last week, Dr. Richard Corlin sparked a huge controversy by
adopting "gun safety" as his platform when he was inaugurated as
president of the American Medical Association.

Citing "an epidemic of handgun violence," Corlin demanded an
increased firearms research budget for the federal Centers for Disease
Control, and more studies of trigger locks and ways to reduce
accidental shootings.

But Corlin failed to mention that, according to studies,
doctors kill three times as many Americans each year as guns do, said
Dasbach.

"According to a report by the Institute of Medicine, 98,000
Americans are killed every year by medical errors," he noted. "By
contrast, 30,708 gun-related deaths occurred in 1998 -- meaning
incompetent doctors are more than three times as deadly as guns."

The Institute's 1999 report called the medical error rate
"stunningly high" and cited "horrific cases" of malpractice, such as a
man who had the wrong leg amputated by a sloppy surgeon.

"If Corlin is concerned about saving lives, why isn't he
campaigning to keep scalpels out of the hands of slipshod surgeons?"
asked Dasbach. "Or demanding background checks for doctors, federal
lawsuits against the medical industry, or a 'cooling off' period to
keep doctors who have just injured a patient out of the operating room
for a few days?"

Corlin's campaign against guns also violates the Hippocratic
Oath of "First Do No Harm," Dasbach pointed out.

"Americans use guns to defend themselves 2.4 million times a
year, according to the Gun Owners Foundation," he said. "So Corlin's
anti-gun agenda could harm -- or even kill -- 2.4 million innocent
Americans every year. That's medical malpractice on a grand scale."

Corlin ought to consider how he would react if the tables were
turned, said Dasbach.

"Imagine the response from doctors if the president of the
National Rifle Association started attacking an 'epidemic of operating
room violence' -- and began campaigning for more medical malpractice
lawsuits," he said. "Yet that's exactly what the AMA has been doing for
years. These physicians have been targeting guns instead of something
they actually have control over: Their incompetent colleagues who are
killing 98,000 of their own patients every year."

The fact is, gun violence isn't a medical issue, it's a
criminal issue, said Dasbach.

"People who use a gun to commit a crime should be arrested and
prosecuted -- which is the job of the police, not doctors," he said.
"Honest, peaceful gun owners should be left alone by misguided doctors
masquerading as politicians.

"In other words, doctors, heal thyselves -- instead of wasting
your time attacking an industry that saves millions of lives every
year."

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2007, 09:10:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon



[snip]..............think a firearm would be too risky, with a high potential for an even more miserable life after a failed attempt.
Charon


I saw that once on Ogrish, the loser sucked so bad at life he missed his brain from under his chin. Of course he was missing his jaw and everything in a cone all the way to his eye. I am pretty sure he "lived" too
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline eagl

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« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2007, 09:17:55 AM »
I remember reading about a guy who tried to kill himself with a drill press... He ended up with a handful of 3 inch deep holes into his brain before he gave up.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2007, 09:21:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
I remember reading about a guy who tried to kill himself with a drill press... He ended up with a handful of 3 inch deep holes into his brain before he gave up.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
(Guess ya gotta have brains in the first place in order to hit the sweet spot when drilling! ;) )

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2007, 09:30:10 AM »
13..   I think that the number of justified homicides or, at least the percentage is a little off...  first of all..  I don't consider a suicide as being a homicide.    second..  I am not sure if all the gangbangers shooting each other is really a homicide...  How many were of guys who are frieghtened to have a gun? who could have saved themselves or others had they the guts to be armed?   How many actual shootouts do the good guys lose and would they have been better off if only the criminal was armed?

But what is most important is that defense of ones home or self or other citizens does not have to involve homicide.   How many homicides or... more basic... how many crimes a year are prevented by armed citizens?

the most conservative number the FBI comes up with is about 1.5 million times a year.   If only 1% of those would have been murders or resulted in the death of the good guy..  we are talking about guns preventing 15,000 deaths of the good guys a year... if we figure that even 10% would have resulted in the good guy getting injured if he didn't have the gun we are talking 150,000 prevented injuries a year.   All the numbers are most likely very low.

People are getting killed and injured here because gutless women are disarming citizens and not imposing long sentences on criminals using guns...  They have no trouble handing out long sentences to otherwise law abiding citizens tho... look at england... a rape or an assault is a lesser sentence that owning a gun.  

People are getting killed because some here are too weak and cowardly to carry a firearm and defend themselves and others.

lazs

Offline Engine

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« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2007, 09:42:51 AM »
My ex-girlfriend's brother tried one of those call-for-attention suicides, and failed. He tried to shoot himself in the head with a shotgun, and failed, which is depressing considering he is an ex-Marine.

Offline FastFwd

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« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2007, 01:28:14 PM »
Quote
Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323;


Interesting proportions.

:aok

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2007, 02:07:37 PM »
I wonder how many "accidents" really weren't?  I wonder how many unsolved homicides were justified?

lazs