Author Topic: The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.  (Read 3250 times)

Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2007, 11:07:45 PM »
A-26 is a very late war attacker. Is American.
 American planes already in game have  huge ground attack capabilities.
 4xF4U's
 F6F
 P-38G
 P-38J
 P-38L
 P-47D11
 P-47D25
 P-47D40
 P-47N
 P-51B
 P-51D
 A20
 SBD
 TBM


Isn't that long enough list of serious ground attack planes for one country?


There are a lot  of American bombers in the game when you compare it to other major WW2 players.

Russia has NONE.

That's why I said Pe-2 or Tu-2 would plug the biggest hole in the game that from the list they provided).

No other plane in that list has more importance when it comes to representing the nations that fought in WW2. Russia gave and took more damage then all other nations except maybe USA (arguably).

American Bombers:

-B-17
-B26
-B-24

UK Bombers:
-Boston3
-Lancaster

German Bombers:
-Ju88
-Ar-223

Japan:
Ki-67


Soviet Union:
NONE

:cry
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 11:11:19 PM by JAWS2003 »

Offline FrodeMk3

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2007, 11:48:14 PM »
Jaws, whereas I pretty much agree with you that we have a fairly good set of US Fighter/Attackers( Even then, we lack about half that would be useful in AvA or scenarios) There are actually some points I'd like to make on the Bombers.
USA:
B-17G-yes, but for better realism a C,E, and F would be handy.
B-26-Needs a torp option, torps used both in the pac. and by the RAF Marauder III's in the med.
B-24J-Wish this one had been a D, woulda made the Ploesti scenario's better.
You forgot the A-20's, But since they are also used Lend-Lease by the Sov's, It's actually a russ bomber in the set.
B-25-Why it was'nt in here at the same time as the 24 or earlier, beats me. But It's also a Cross-over, A win-win.

UK:
Just because we have the Lanc and the Bost.III, does'nt mean that this set is well represented.

We don't have a Short Stirling.
We don't have a Vickers Wellington.
We don't have a Handley-Page Hallifax.
We don't have an Armstrong-Whitworth Whitley.
We don't have any Hampdens.
We have 1 Mossy, but it's the Fighter variant, not the one with the glass nose, or the one with the 4,000# 'Cookie' bomb.

Come to think of it, We don't have the only allied operational Jet, either.(The Meteor, of course.)

Luftwaffe Bombers:

IMHO, the Ju-88 and the only perk bomber in the game, the Ar-234, Barely scratch the surface.Our BoB just isn't the same without the He-111 or Do-17.

A Fw-200 Condor would be their only 4 engine bomber, but it was enough of a threat for the British Admiralty to add CAM ships(Catupult-Armed-Merchantmen, A Hurri I without floats, which had to ditch at sea) to their convoys.

Also, A Ju-52. 'Nuff said.

Japan:

The Ki-67, while being one of Japan's most capable Bombers, was'nt the most important. We've been missing the G4M badly. Also, the G3M 'Nell', a very important EW Japanese bomber. The Ki-21 'Sally' as well.

Now, I'm not gonna dispute the lack of Soviet bombers; Either the Pe-2 or the Tu-2 show up in most books on Eastern front aerial combat. However, with a Red star skin on the Boston, you have the A-20C-D variant that was sent lend-lease. I guess what I'm trying to say is, we have several glaring holes in the planeset. I'd have to say that HTC has modeled about 40% of the major aircraft that flew in the war, in operational use.

Offline tedrbr

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2007, 12:03:25 AM »
I agree with your post JAWS2003.

Problems are:

This selection was open to vote by the players.  For the mostly fitr pilots from AHII to vote anything other than a fighter in is a long shot.   Only perk-worthy overgunned bomber mentioned, the Invader, may see it through a couple rounds, but will fall to a fighter unless there is a big surprise.  And I only push the Invader because buff pilots could really use another perk-ride option than the Arado. Invader is perk worthy in B configuration.  Otherwise, you are right, American plane set is heavy enough.  I would have preferred the Flak36 to the Firefly as well.

I'd love to see additonal Russian, Italian, Japanese and German planes added to the game.  Not going to happen by popular vote though.

AvA, EW and MW have poor numbers, most action in the two LW's, most pilots fly fighters, and most pilots like the high performance planes.  There is also a very high percentage of American players.  As these are where the votes are coming from, it would suggest pretty strongly where the voting will eventually lead.

The 3 most likely contenders would be the:
Yak-3, but would have very short legs in war arenas due to fuel settings. Also, less "punch" than the other two below.
P-39 because it is the American fighter listed (that is not the Buffalo).
G.55 which reportedly was a sweet ride, has a great ammo load, but was fielded for such a very short time in limited numbers during WWII. (But exported by Italy after the war for a few years.... that says something about a plane).

As to the original post: the problem is that the best bombers Russia had during WWII generally came from Lend-Lease from America and Britain anyway.  Russia did not get into strategic bombing like the other Allies.  The Pe-2 and Tu-2 (light, high speed, and dive bombing) certainly had similar numbers to the B-17's and B-24's heavy bombers that were produced.  Just not the impact, beyond killing lots of German front line troops and tanks.   They are closer to the Ju-88, Bf110, and Ki-67 in capabilities, in the game now.  And those planes see limited use compared to most in the game.


Finally, as in voting for what's popular.  Adding a plane just because it was used in the war, or had great numbers, does not mean it won't be a hangar queen in the game.  Adding a plane so it can be used in a senerio or two doesn't mean it will see use in the War arenas.  Adding a plane just to fill out a short plane set does not mean it will get flown.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 12:07:01 AM by tedrbr »

Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2007, 12:23:41 AM »
Why do you bring in the strategic bombing when the war in Europe was won on the front line with tanks troops and tactical planes.

The same in AH. you don't win the war with the raid to the enemy HQ. you do tactical warfare, bombing and strafing the enemy front line base, so you can capture it. This is how you win the war in AH too. With tactical airpower.

Oh yeah we should add the A-26  because is American late war uber ride with a gazillion of fifty cals  regardless of how many saw action, or how many other US planes there are already in the  game. Other important nations in the war have to settle with a custom skin on the same US planes. :rolleyes:

Offline Kweassa

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2007, 02:30:18 AM »
Quote
Fighter command rebuilt, stopped Georing, and forced the cancellation of Operation Sea Lion.

While still not even finished with the BoB, He turns on Stalin, and attacks east.

While Making great initial gains, and sweeping victories, his lines of supply, and the fact that he let up on GB, cause him to slowly bog down in Russia.


 I find this statement questionable.

 The supply lines were stretched out to their limit, and German advance was halted in a few key strategic locations by summer of 1942. In the fall and winter of 1942 the Soviet forces successfully organized the largest counter offensive of modern warfare in the history of mankind, and put a serious crack in the claims of "invincibility" of the Wehrmacht when Paulus's 6th were utterly annihilated in the most crushing defeat for the Third Reich until that point in history.

 BoB was a monumental event, but just how much of German miitary might was actually decimated during 1940? Many pilots and aircraft were lost, but not a single infantry soldier landed and fought on English soil.

 Operations in Africa no doubt played a certain role in keeping the Soviets in the game, but frankly the amount of actual pressure Great Britain had put against the Germans by the time the Whermacht had passed Smolensk and were marching to Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad, that would have had any kind of effect, was IMO minimal, if not negligible.

 Leaving the British alone was indeed a fatal mistake when in 1943, the British isles became the very foundation of resurrecting "Western front" which was KIA at Dunkirk in 1940, but when the Soviets were fighting for their lives, I don't think Brits or the Americans were of any real help up to that point. (in terms of direct military involvement, ofcourse)



Quote
Wow, makes you wonder why the west even bothered fighting.


 The West did what they were capable of, the East did theirs. The only thing is that it so happens the fights in the East was a lot bigger than the West.

 In the end, it's just a matter of due recognition for both western and eastern allies alike. Whereas the Western front gets plenty of recognition and glory from enthusiasts, the jaw-dropping scope, scale, brutality, fierceness, and importance of the Eastern front is, paraphrasing a certain game product, unfortunately remains as "forgotten battles" for many Americans.



Quote
The Pe-2 and Tu-2 (light, high speed, and dive bombing) certainly had similar numbers to the B-17's and B-24's heavy bombers that were produced. Just not the impact, beyond killing lots of German front line troops and tanks.


 Oh they had plenty of impact. Even the IL-2 was regarded as perhaps the most brilliant attack plane ever designed by WW2 forces, and it played an absolutely remarkable role in Eastern front warfare. Consider the fact that after summer of 1944 the interdiction role became increasingly more important for fighter-bombers and attackers of the USAAF also.

 It's a matter of how the war is played out, and when you actually have to start putting in infantry to advance, the tactical bomber/attacker role becomes everybit as important as the strategic bombers.

 The problem in AH is, the basic systems concerning the ground warfare aspect isn't really independant at all. Its dynamics are still tied to the aerial warfare, and the many limitations concerning how GVs are used in the game has a lot to do with some of the lighter-loaded, tactical bomber/attack aircraft being treated as little more than uselss.

 Let's hope HTC frees up the ground warfare, and somehow comes up with an entirely different ground war system that depicts the ebb and flow of fronts dynamically. I think if that is achieved, the lighter, smaller bomber/attack planes such as the A-20, Il-2, and the medium bombers like Ju-88 and Ki-67, would get lots of more roles to be played out.

Offline FrodeMk3

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2007, 09:32:57 AM »
Quote
It's a matter of how the war is played out, and when you actually have to start putting in infantry to advance, the tactical bomber/attacker role becomes everybit as important as the strategic bombers.


Quote
The problem in AH is, the basic systems concerning the ground warfare aspect isn't really independant at all. Its dynamics are still tied to the aerial warfare, and the many limitations concerning how GVs are used in the game has a lot to do with some of the lighter-loaded, tactical bomber/attack aircraft being treated as little more than uselss.


Quote
Let's hope HTC frees up the ground warfare, and somehow comes up with an entirely different ground war system that depicts the ebb and flow of fronts dynamically. I think if that is achieved, the lighter, smaller bomber/attack planes such as the A-20, Il-2, and the medium bombers like Ju-88 and Ki-67, would get lots of more roles to be played out.


Wherein lies the whole problem, Kweassa. While the A-20G and the IL-2 have their followers, the light twins in this game sit in the hangar, for the most part.This is why most are voting for a fighter, or hvy Bomber, due to the tactical role in the game being filled by one of the two. This is unfortunate, because it overshadows the true importance of aircraft such as the Pe-2, Tu-2, B-25 or A-26. And It's why we probably won't see any of these ingame, if left to a vote.

Offline Vad

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2007, 11:16:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Wherein lies the whole problem, Kweassa. While the A-20G and the IL-2 have their followers, the light twins in this game sit in the hangar, for the most part.This is why most are voting for a fighter, or hvy Bomber, due to the tactical role in the game being filled by one of the two. This is unfortunate, because it overshadows the true importance of aircraft such as the Pe-2, Tu-2, B-25 or A-26. And It's why we probably won't see any of these ingame, if left to a vote.


Introducing new type of bomb - PTAB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTAB) would make Il2 and Pe2 extremely popular in AH, and would make Il2 what it really was - "tank destryer". You can't miss with that thing, and sinlge Il2 can kill 4 GVs in single sortie guaranteed.

It could change ground war in AH. Il2 would be used widely in defence against GV attacks on bases, air attacks in TT, clearing enemy base from flaks, etc.

Offline tedrbr

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2007, 11:39:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JAWS2003
Why do you bring in the strategic bombing when the war in Europe was won on the front line with tanks troops and tactical planes.

The same in AH. you don't win the war with the raid to the enemy HQ. you do tactical warfare, bombing and strafing the enemy front line base, so you can capture it. This is how you win the war in AH too. With tactical airpower.

Oh yeah we should add the A-26  because is American late war uber ride with a gazillion of fifty cals  regardless of how many saw action, or how many other US planes there are already in the  game. Other important nations in the war have to settle with a custom skin on the same US planes. :rolleyes:


WWII was fought on the front lines with tanks and troops.  
The war was WON in strategic actions.  
The War in the Atlantic with subs and convoys and supplies to England and Russia.  The early war in the Med where Germany could not resupply Rommel in North Africa.  The Battle of Britain where the shifting of targets from attacking strategic airpower to bombing London by Germany saved England.  With the bombing of oil fields, synthetic refineries, and ball bearing plants throughout the German War machine.  With the Red Ball Express.
 
Hard as it is to think about it, World War II was a war of attrition.  So long as one side could continue to push the cannon-fodder forward, while preventing the other side from doing the same, they win.


Now, the game AHII, is more tactically driven.  Strategic war not really fought since that would take combined effort of several bomber pilots to pull off, and the will is not there among the players most of the time.

Yes, A-26 Invader is a Late War uber-ride.  It is also one of the BEST tactical aircraft to come out of WWII, which carried over to Korea and Vietnam, and other wars through the 1970s in CAS roles.  It would also be one heck of a FUN ride, and this IS a game.
It is probably the best choice to add a perk-worthy bomber to the game for buff drivers to spend their buff perk points on, other than the Arado, and hopefully cut down the number of bomb-and-bail buff drivers.  POSSIBLY even give a reason to play more strategic missions in the war arenas, to earn points, to be able to fly the Invader.

AvA has little population.  EW and MW have little population.  The SEA event attendance is hit and miss.  Adding more EW rides or filling niches in the plane-sets will not change that.  'If you build it, they still ain't coming.'  The majority of the player base is in the two LW arenas.  The interest of the majority of players is late war, higher performance rides.  

Invader's saw action in the last 8 to 9 months of the war in both the ETO and PTO. 2,452 were built and operated among 48 squadrons among the Fifth(Far East Air Force), Seventh (WPTO), Ninth(ETO), and Twelfth (MTO) Air Forces, at the very least.  This included the 8th and 13th in the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers"; the 386th's 554th Bomb Squadron; and the 319th Group after assigned to the 7th AF at Okinawa.


I'd like to see the plane sets evened out more.  That is not going to happen in a popular vote from the online players.

Offline Xasthur

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2007, 11:53:42 AM »
I'd be inclined to vote for Ruski bombers if the Me-410 gets knocked out.

The russian planeset is too light.

I just hope it's not another American ride that wins... we have enough.
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Offline Mister Fork

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2007, 12:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xasthur
I'd be inclined to vote for Ruski bombers if the Me-410 gets knocked out.

The russian planeset is too light.

I just hope it's not another American ride that wins... we have enough.
I'm in with you there Xasthur - the US has enough bombers that can address early, middle, and late war bombers.  

I personally think that by adding another Soviet bomber, it fills that gaping hole - no soviet bombers.

The challenge HTC has is that they could start marketing their product to other countries.  I personally think they're missing out on the German market.  I mean - go buy adds in GERMAN PC magazines and websites AND TV and advertise Aces High to them.  If they fill the Soviet aircraft gaps with early Mig/Yak variants, even the Lagg, they could target the former warsaw pack countries for advertising and expand their membership.

More membership = more money for development = faster turn-around times for  adding new items/aircraft/vehicles/enhancements = better product = more players = higher revenue = HAPPY HTC owners. :D  Nice causal loop there...
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Offline Vadjan-Sama

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2007, 12:48:11 PM »
Alredy put my vote for the Yak-3 but to see the photos and data of the Pe-2 it will made me have some nice dreams, and I agree in the fact that we needed more “No-EU” planes, we have enough of them, to have so few airplanes of one of the three great allied powers is very sad.

I hope in the future HT can add more "No-EU" planes.


PD: GO YAK-3/PE-2!!!

PD2: 1 video more Pe-2

PD3: I am going to prey to see this scene but in AHII Pe-2
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 01:04:16 PM by Vadjan-Sama »
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Offline Tilt

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2007, 02:43:07 PM »
Its a shame that such a debate brings into account a "who won the war arguement".

Which nation made the greatest sacrifices for victory ? IMO Russia 24m+ dead.
Which nation made the greatest profit? Who was the real winner? Well I wont go there.

Did a dead GI in Normandy make any less sacrifice than a dead Red army infantry man on the same day in Vilnius?

Then we start to measure victory by who killed the most in this or that action.

Dresden did nothing to lessen German moral Harris should have known this. The London Blitz had strengthened the british will and Harris should have known this.

Yet every street in Germany had soldiers or a soldier on the Eastern Front..many hearing of the hell of fighting an opponent who would gladly spill his own blood to buy back another foot of Russian soil.

At the time of the Western Allies comparatively little skirmish in Normandy the Russians wer part way thru Operation Bagration. Still the largest and most successfull offensive in the History of warfare.  Many here may not even of heard of it.

Bagration saw the collapse and capture of Germanies largest single Army Group  central. All histories of Bagration show it to be simply Hitlers greatest defeat. WWII in Europe (IMO) turned at Stalingrad. It was only due to Mansteins brilliant "moving pocket" defence (in early 43) that the war was drawn out into 45.

What would have happened if the Germans had invaded Great Britain and them moved on Russia in 42  ? Who knows..... my view is that eventually the Russians would have taken all of Europe bar Italy and Southern France.

German occupied Britain finally surrendering to the  US and the remnants of the Commonwealth.

Should all this warrant a Pe2 or Tu2 in AH?

The role of the Pe2 in the GPW cannot be denied it was the dive bomber that the IL2 was not. [the IL2 was not a dive bomber] The Pe2 attacked just behind German lines (the il2 was almost a battlefield tool) hitting logistics feeding the battle lines. It took part in every battle of the GPW.

However whilst great for scenarios its not of sufficient strength to attract users in the MA. It would never win a contest based on popular vote.

The Tu2 may find a role in the MA. It is also derived from a dive bomber. Its wings could withstand the sort of dive that our A20 cannot. But put it beside the A26..................  again it will not win such a popular vote for MA use.
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Offline Karnak

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2007, 03:01:37 PM »
I voted for the Pe-2/Tu-2.

Biggest gap in the set is the lack of Russian bombers.

P-39 is just another secopnd rate US fighter.  Fills the same gap, more or less, as the P-40E does.
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Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2007, 09:34:15 AM »
Tu-2 FTW :D


after the bomb run two forward 20mm cannons are handy for the vulch.





Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2007, 10:30:22 AM »
Pe-2 and Tu-2

Rest in peace :(