thach weave

[rauchen]

Yes & Yes.

Since the easiest thing to hit is an NME fixated on a wing man this is an awesome move.

I've been in a situation where two of us were dragging & we cleared each other's 6 in mere seconds.  Lucky high angle shots to be sure but it worked.

This works not so well in the MA when you're not really winging with someone, but you're trying to clear a team mate's 6 anyway.  What I'm trying to say is that there is an art to dragging.  If you have someone locked on your 6 and there's a ton of freindlies diving down to help, don't circle even harder!  And if you are coming to help someone tell them when to straighten out or which way to turn for a good shot.

Winging with a squadmate or someone you know works best because you can work out the details & learn each other's style.

I especially like the vertical drag - get the nme slow so that he can't jink so well & he's a goner fer sure!

[B@tfinkV]

quick sketch of a vertical two-man fighting retreat as best i can draw in 2 mins.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Diagram looks like a ho shot at the end.
The bait should do what he does in the diagram, but the wingman should not be at same alt as bait, try to go up alittle that way he can come slightly down and shoot the bad guy on his six.

actually, not even close to the HO..........to the perspective of the shooter, the target is going to fly "under" his nose.......looks more like he's got a REALLY nice canopy shot though

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
most effective thatch weave varient i've used in the main arenas is a vertical one. all of my squad mates have this manouver down to a fine art for a formation 'fighting retreat'.

lead makes the diving attack and wingman waits above. lead makes a kill and climbs, wingman dives in to intantly take the ropes off of lead. lead loops over to take ropes off of wingman, repeat till you get home.

If anyone is interested i have a recent decent example from furball and me winging in chogs, i could post it if you want.

S!

Me and Mike(souless) did this yesterday, fighting our way back home against 4 badguys.  We kept our E and kept looping over to clear each others 6.  I landed 9 he landed 6!  

Mark

[BluKitty]

FYI That is called a leapfrog  Sky ... the weave is much deadlier .... likewise .. it is much harder to do correctly.

The idea is you do a figure 8 of sicciors with your wing'man',  staying within D400 at ALL times.  The con will be forced to pick a target at about D600 ... and the wing'man' should be able to siccior back and shoot right away.

Of course this is simpler to say than to do.   BOTH pilots must know what they are doing, and be able to control their aircraft well.... because if the con chooses you you need to be able to still manuver out of the way, and it's possible you can be mistaken on the chosen target... a smart attacker may spray towards one, then break towards the other....

Nothing in practise is ever as simple as the theory... but I have used this to extreme success in the MA, but I've only ever flowen with a handful of pilots that are good enough to do it with me.

Some typical problems most people have with using the weave and failing are getting too far away from their wing'man',  not being able to judge who the target is and merge with the attacker-despite your wing'man"s and the cons manuvers, or letting yourself get shot when your the target.

The main thing about the leapfrog is it relies on having an amount of energy, the weave doesn't require this.

[B@tfinkV]

so what youre saying is the real thatch weave is effective but it would seem only on 1 or maybe 2 cons at most.

surely even the best gunners will sometimes be slower than a decent gunner in attack, risking your wingperson or yourself on every kill.

im sure if you looked around you would find many many pilots capable of using this manouver, the problem is that you have to find the right enemy and the right number of them, and then be fortunate in a world where 240ammo of cannon is happily sprayed at yu from 800 to 200 yrds for one kill.

[Mace2004]

Batfink, yes, the weave is easier with one or two attackers but the original was also designed for two sections flying abeam each other and the entire division would fly the weave.  It also worked against superior numbers.  Also, you're right that it's dangerous for the fighter being attacked but then it's a defensive maneuver designed against the bandit attacking the section from their high six.  Here's a good pic of it.



The weave is really fairly simple for anyone comfortable flying a fighter but it does take some practice and a modicum of SA.  Blukitty's right, you probably wouldn't want to count on a nugget to do this with.  Many don't understand the objective which is for the free fighter to get a quick kill or they're no good at high angle deflection shots, reversals and sustained turns.  

It builds on what should be a normal reaction for any section to a stern attack...both fighters turn into each other.  This gives the free fighter the quickest shot at the attacker.   When the two fighters cross after about 90 deg of turn it's simply a matter of both reversing their turns to repeat the maneuver and set up the scissors.  It does take some patience, timing and more importantly discipline.

I'd say trying to stay within D400 is not setting up the right geometry unless you're already slow or doing a break turn and bleeding which is not the intent (unless of course you're getting your bellybutton shot off).  It also makes it harder than it needs to be.  If you're too close you won't have gotten enough turn before you cross and you probably won't get the forward quarter shot unless you bleed and you'll probably end up with a more difficult 90deg deflection shot.  Another problem with being too close is it's harder to determine who the enemy is attacking.

The fighters should be at about a turn radius of each other so that would be anywhere between D600 and D800 (even further for poor turners and at high altitude) depending on the plane and they should stay close to corner velocity for best turn rate.  Of course, as things slow down (which they will after two or three scissors) the whole affair gets tighter but by then you should have dealt with the first attacker or he should have blown through.  In cases where there are two attackers, the weave complicates the second attacker's problem a bit because both fighters are out of phase but he can't be ignored.  One weave and a quick kill on his lead should make him think twice about continuing the engagement.  Or, if each bandit takes a fighter and attempts to follow them through the weave each fighter should ideally be able to gain forward quarter attacks in each bandit.

[BluKitty]

The reason I said around 400 meaning about d500 max away form your wing'man' is that this will give you around a d200 shot as the attacker tries to attack.  And no ... properly executed this can handle many more than 1 or 2 cons...but if your severly outnumbered you will be forced to break the weave to avoid getting shot by a third and fourth attacker etc... the trick is to, as soon as your free, turn right back towards your wing'man'.

Also you don't want to attack at 90 degree turns, this wastes energy, and provides for bad shots... it needs to be an elongated figure 8, more like 45 degrees when you meet... 90 degree turns in a weave is a huge mistake.

Here's a couple of images that illustrate my point better:

[Gumbeau]

A much more effective technique is a lag displacement roll as it puts the free fighter in the saddle

Example: (Gonna be hard to visualize...maybe I'll dig up a film at sometime)

Two fighters in combat spread

Port side fighter is attacked and initiates right hand turn towards his wingman.

His wingman has several choices.

1. Break right....bad idea as it gives the bandit his rear quarter and doesn't do anything to complicate the bandit's solution.

2. Break left into the bandit for a high angle front quarter pass. This is the initiation of the thach weave essentially but a poor choice because it extends the time before he can pressure the bandit again after the pass.

3. Split S and run away...your wingman won't be happy if you choose this option.

4. Execute a barrell roll to arrive on the bandit 6 in a killing position. Great solution...difficult to achieve without extensive practice.

How its done................

First, you have to be in some version of combat spread for this to work. You cannot displace your turn circle onto the bandit's from trail using a barrell roll.


When the wingman breaks right with the bandit on his tail the hero in our story must go nose high and begin a roll towards the bandit. The severity of the nose high pull is dependent on the relative positions of the hero and the bandit and the violence of the break turn of the wingman. In most cases 45 degrees is about the maximum necessary.

Once you have achieved the nose high angle necessary begin a roll towards the bandit (or wingman) and continue the roll until the lift vector is pointing at the bandit (slightly in front of him). Maintain the lift vector on the bandit until you see him sliding in front of your 3-9 line then pull to bring the bandit into your gunsight.

Properly executed and this maneuver will result in a tracking rear quarter gun solution.

Of course this requires a large amount of practice to learn and instinctively execute. The most difficult part is finding a wingman who can stay line abreast. Most online pilots fall into trail formation and there arent a bunch of effective offensive or defensive tactics that work from trail.

Learning and practicing are easy if you have a willing wingman.

Start with this drill. Fly line abreast 500 yards apart at less than full throttle. The guy who wants to practice will advance to full throttle and when he starts to accelerate will do a nose high barrell roll to end on his wingman's six. Once you can lag roll from line abreast to close trail on a wingman flying straight then you are ready to move to variations of this drill in which your wingman executes a turn towards you to signal the start of the lag roll sequence.

Once you learn to lag roll to displace your turn circle laterally you will discover it is a useful tactic in many situations.

In order to execute it all you need is excess lead pursuit on the target. It is called a lag roll because it converts this lead pursuit to lag pursuit using a roll.


I'll try to find a film.


Of course the weave is much simpler and should be part of the tactical toolkit unless both pilots in the wing pair are proficient at lag rolls. Even then there are certain situations in which the weave is preferred. An example would be if both our heroes are under pressure and need to egress along a given track while attempting to scare off the pursuit. Going nose high with bandit on your six is suicidal making the lag roll an exceedingly poor choice.

[FX1]

The problem like Blukitty said is that your wingman must be a great aim. Your letting a plane have your six is not a good idea if that pilot knows what he is doing.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by FX1
The problem like Blukitty said is that your wingman must be a great aim. Your letting a plane have your six is not a good idea if that pilot knows what he is doing.

Gumbeau has an excellent point in the lag roll, another advantage to the combat spread formation and, more to the point he realizes the limitations.  There is however another limit in that it puts all three aircraft into a daisy chain, in phase and, after the lag roll, predictable.  This can make it easier for the bandit's wingman to position behind both fighters as opposed to the out of phase scissors where he'd have to choose one or the other.  There are goods and others to both approaches.

As far as relying on your wingman having great aim well....remember this is a defensive maneuver designed for use against a maneuverable bandit that is already on your six, what else is the engaged fighter going to do but turn toward his wingman for help?  May as well do a preplanned tactic to optimize the wingman's opportunities for a shot.  Also, it may not be obvious but should the bandit be at the speed of heat he'll probably overshoot on the initial turn...if so the immediate problem is already solved and the fighters reverse to reform the combat spread.  Again, this is not an offensive tactic designed as a honey pot to lure the unwitting bandit by using one of the fighters as bait, it's a reaction to an already defensive situation.  If the bandit is spotted at a distance the fighters should use a cross or tac turn to face him not just drag along waiting for him to arrive unless the tactical situation dictates their heading.

[Badboy]

Originally posted by BluKitty

This maneuver demonstrates an important principle, namely, that every Kitty likes to play with a ball of wool

Badboy

[Mace2004]

I think that's the doodling kitty's do just before waxing my butt.

[B@tfinkV]

to me, the tech of this manouver is ver simply to understand, what is more difficult is that in aces high we have some very good gunnery experts and alot of guys who can shoot more than ok. In real life you could probably let the enmy to 400 yrds and not get shot, not so possible in ah2.