Author Topic: Looking for info  (Read 3121 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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« on: April 09, 2007, 01:10:18 AM »
Ok we have some pretty good historians here. Im hoping some of you can help me out

On Feb 22 1944 B17s from the 381st bomber group including Bombers from
 the 532nd, 533rd ,535th, did a bombing run on Bunde Germany
where they were reportedly met by over 200 high caliber german fighters. Mostly 190s

During that action among others. the following crew was lost

2nd Lt. Downey, Charles H.      P   
2nd Lt. Herdlicka, Donald E.   CP   
2nd Lt. Hicks, John D.         N   
2nd Lt. Evans, James C.         B
S/Sgt. Chauvin, Miler P.      TTG
S/Sgt. Matheson, Earl E.      ROG   
Sgt. Phillips, Norman E.      RWG
S/Sgt. Carini, Adolph V.      LWG
S/Sgt. Sorbino, Joseph G.      TG
S/Sgt. Schiek, Earl B.         BTG

I am looking for two kinda of information.

What german units (squads) participated in this action (german records perhaps?)
and type and models used in these specific units.

Second has to do with the crew that was lost.
I know it was a B-17.
Would like to know which model, serial number (call number) And if the plane had a name or any other info on the plane itslef is available

Actually you wont just be helping me out. This is for my mother in law.
Her brother. was one Sorbino, Joseph G.  
Tailgunner on that plane.

I've found some stuff on my own which she didnt know about.
Much of which I have included here. what I am looking for is this missing information so I can give her a more complete picture
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 01:12:58 AM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007, 06:49:26 AM »
I am sure you have already seen this pic at vikipedia:



"B-17s of the 381st Bomb Group, Ridgewell Airfield England, enroute to targets over Nazi-occupied territory. The aircraft in the foreground is Boeing B-17G-70-BO Fortress, Serial 42-31443 "Friday the 13th" of the 532d Bomb Squadron. This aircraft was lost on 22 February 1944 on a mission to Bunde, Germany"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/381st_Bomb_Group

Just an interesting coincidence that it shows (or is claimed to show) a plane that was lost in Bunde on tha exact date.


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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2007, 06:58:06 AM »
Casualty list of 381st in year 1944:

<http://www.381st.org/cas_sort_year-1944.html>


Last Name First Name MI Crew pos Rank Fate Date A/C Serial MACR
Sorbino   Joseph   G. TG S/Sgt KIA 2/22/1944 42-31533 2931




So... it was not the plane in that picture above.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:01:10 AM by BlauK »


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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 07:13:24 AM »
Yanno I've been over the 381st site as welll as the rest of the web probably 100 times and havent stumbled across either of those.
I had found him. Even found his gravesite (the family was unaware he even had one)But not the AC serial #.
I had a feeling I needed a set of fresh eyes to look around.

while the plane in the pic isnt the same as his. it does provide a snippet of the event
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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 07:14:33 AM »
The plane was received on Jan 4th 1944:
http://www.381st.org/histories/535th_01-1944.html

His squadron was 535, code MS
He was promoted to S/Sgt on Feb 8th 1944
His crew was assigned on Dec 28th 1943

Plane type was G and its letter was "U" .. no nick-name (? according to that list??)
http://www.381st.org/aircraft-roster.html

So the plane code was "MS-U"  (?)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:47:10 AM by BlauK »


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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 07:22:12 AM »
According to its serial number...

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/1942_2.html

31533 (381st BG, 533rd BS) shot down by fighter Wiedenbruck, Germany Feb 22, 1944.  MACR 2931


Wiedenbruck is some 80 miles SSE from Bunde...  Unless there are some other places with same names.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:25:12 AM by BlauK »


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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 07:56:44 AM »
which led me to yet another snippet

31533 (381st BG, 533rd BS) shot down by fighter Wiedenbruck,
               Germany Feb 22, 1944.  MACR 2931

Knew it was shot down. Figured probably by an AC but couldnt say definitively if it was by AC or AAA

Now. whats  "Wiedenbruck" LOL

--edit---

Nevermind. just saw your last post
Musta foudn the same page around the same time
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 08:00:33 AM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline TimRas

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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 09:18:20 AM »
For Luftwaffe claims:

O.K.L. Fighter Claims : Chef für Ausz. und Dizsiplin Luftwaffen-Personalamt L.P. (A) V Films & Supplementary Claims from Lists

Look for file:

Reich, West and Südfront, Jan to Apr 1944. Vol. I


http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

Offline Hazzer

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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007, 10:24:44 AM »
jg/26 were in the air on the 22:2:44 in their fw 190's, as were I/jg5 in brand new bf109's over regensburg, sorry I can't find more detailed information.
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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2007, 12:58:22 PM »
I found some possibilities from the great link TimRas gave. There was no mention of Wiedenbruck, but Gütersloh is right by it (about 5 miles) and Bielefeld a bit further away (some 15 miles)


22.2.1944  13:35-50 Ltn. Rudi Dassow 4./ZG 26 B-17 Bielefeld: 6.000 m.
22.2.1944  13:36 Obst. Walter Oesau:111 Stab/JG 1 B-17 10 km. N. Thier: 1.000 m. [Gütersloh]
22.2.1944  13:40 Ltn. Werner Gerth Sturmstaffel 1 B-17 Bielefeld: 6.500 m.
22.2.1944  15:05 Uffz. Kirchner:2 11./JG 11 B-17 05 Ost S/JR-1: 6.000 m. [W. Gütersloh]
22.2.1944  15:07 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 IR-66: 5.500 m. [W. Gütersloh]
22.2.1944  15:09 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 JR-66: no height  [W. Gütersloh]


If you only knew the altitude and the time....

Actually, a plane shot "west of Gütersloh" would likely crash pretty much right to Wiedenbruck.

From various sources... I cannot claim how reliable these are:
JG1 flew Fw190:s
4./ZG26 had Me410:s
Sst1 had Fw190:s
11./JG11 had Bf109T (?)
10./NJG3 had mostly Ju-88:s but also a couple of Fw190:s
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 01:28:15 PM by BlauK »


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Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 01:01:13 PM »
found a little stuff

http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~families/halsey/0144.html

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rioolpw/boeing_seattle_01.html

6647     B-17G-20-BO    xxx     42-31533


http://www.accident-report.com/macr.html

Sorbino, Joseph is listed here and they may have a copy of the report.
A complete report is listed at $25.00

Offline BlauK

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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 01:34:50 PM »
Another source gives slightly different details to Walter Oesau's actions that day:

120.,  22.2.1944,  13:36,  B-17,  Stab JG 1,  N Thierl (Bielefeld-Münster), 6000 m


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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 04:01:57 PM »
Certainly a nice change of pace from just looking up aircraft performances in any event, huh

We have the opportunity to possibly place specific people in specific planes in places in time.
And help complete a story for a lost servicemans sister in the proccess

thanks a ton for the help


From the 81st website
Feb 44

22. Today the group learned what the true meaning of tight formation, large numbers of bombers and a full fighter escort.

Thirty one Forts took off this morning but some of the filthiest weather conditions over not a high altitude prevented the majority of them from bombing. Nineteen of them aborted, three of them out of the six sent by this squadron.
Twelve, including Lts Smith, Hustedt and Downey followed Major John Fitzgerald of the 532nd, to a rendezvous with 15 Forts from the 91st BG. These 27 ships, late for their escort, proceeded over the German coast alone, headed for Oschersleben.

About an hour inside Germany they were hit by more than 200 German fighters of high calibre. Major Fitzgerald had two sets of wingmen shot down. The group lost six, three from the 535th . The target bombed was Bunde, after more that 40 minutes of constant attack from enemy fighters, mostly FW190's.

MIA crews: 1st Lt Lee W. Smith, 2nd Lts Rowland H. Evans, Leonard P. Meier, Harold Kaufman; T/Sgts Harold C. Kemper, John C. Zappala, S/Sgt Lester P. Larson, Sgt Reginald C. Solway, S/Sgts Andrew F. Manning and Lawrence V. Eden.

2nd Lts Henry Hustedt, Keith S. Mauzey, Oral H. Hert, Stanley B. Inglis; Sgt Arthur R. Tell, S/Sgt Abelardo Rodruiguez, Sgts Rocco F. Russo, Vito R. Kuracina, Leslie J. Hanna and Robert C. Pingel.

2nd Lts Charles H. Downey, Donald Herdlicka, John D. Hicks, James C. Evans; S/Sgts Miller P. Chauvin, Earl E. Matheson, Earl B. Scheik, Sgt Norman E. Phillips, S/sgts Adolph V. Carini and Joseph G. Sorbino.

Sgts R. W. Smith and R. J. Powell, flying with other squadrons were each credited with an e/a damaged.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 04:15:41 PM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2007, 02:12:55 AM »
I wonder if the MACR would have time and altitude info, or some other details.
You could buy a copy of it from the archives since you now know the number.


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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2007, 07:45:50 AM »
Thats a thought too.

Just as a point in subject and in case anyone just thinks Im just being morbid.
I asked all involved. mother in law, Wife, Sisters in law if they wanted to know any of this info. Asking them if they wanted to know the german pilots name when it became evident I/we might be able to narrow it down a a few german pilots if not THE german pilot that shot him down.

They were unanimous in their affirmative answer Just to have the story completed.

May seem odd enough but there is no ill felt against the German pilot whoever he is.
"He was just fighting for his country. Just like Joe was doing for ours."
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty