Author Topic: gun control...  (Read 6154 times)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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gun control...
« Reply #300 on: April 23, 2007, 09:04:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
ripley...  to answer your question of need.  

I have never been in a wreck where a seatbelt would help me...  most have not...  is that a reason to never use em? they are a huge pain in the butt to use.. don't you feel a little silly putting one on when it will never come into play?   paranoid?

I have never had a house burn down...  not many have...  we have fire departments to put em out.   why have insurance?   You are much more likely to need a gun in your life than you are fire insurance.

Those who think the cops can protect you... Have you not seen the film of our riots and the store owners with "assault weapons" defending their stores while the thugs walk down the street with loot from stores where the owners did not defend?   The truckdriver stomped half to death?   where were the police?

On a good day they don't go into those areas or.. if they do it is with locked doors on their cruisers.

Certainly half our homicides and most of our crime comes from one type of big city area and one or two minorities...

Without their contribution our homicide and crime rate is not very high... should I give up my right to defend myself and others on the off chance that some law that removes my rights will make these people behave better?

What gun laws in your countries (england, australia) made things better, reduced violent crime and homicide?  

Do you enjoy hiding in your locked room on the phone to the police while burglars ransack your home?    Why have you given up your rights?   Why do you lack human courage and responsibility?   Is that why your societies are decaying, because you have given these things over to a government?

I think yes.

lazs


No lazs our society is far from decaying. Finns got the 2nd highest place in the 'happiness' study where different countries were evaluated on how content the occupants are to their life. Major factors being low corruption, low violence expectancy and trust to the government. Our economy is growing at a record rate and we're one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. Did you know that 95% of finns have access to broadband internet? My 75 year old grandfather has broadband at his home, he uses a dating service after my grandmother passed away.  :eek:

We're happy campers.

I'm not afraid of burglars entering my house - our front door is unlocked 20 hours of the day. We only lock it when we all leave the house or all are asleep, but even then many nights it's left open.

My garage door is unlocked 24/7 with all tools and stuff inside. We keep our mercedes's outside, sometimes also unlocked. Nobody took them so far. Well, we do take the keys out of the car at least. :rolleyes:

As what goes for wearing seatbelts in a car, I take them for granted. I value my life enough to wear this free form of protection even when the law doesn't require it. I also drive a Mercedes for the same reason. I wouldn't even dream of going out on the road not wearing the simple piece of fabric that can very well save my life in conjunction with the many airbags in the car.

And for the fire insurance.. well let's just say that our expectancy for fire and gun use must be really different because I've never even dreamed about HAVING to use a gun on anything in my life - but I've almost managed to burn my house with decorative lighting.

Nobody I know on personal level owns a gun for personal protection. Not even people who work driving a taxi, they only have mace with them. My ex employer had a carry permit, he did money transfers for a job. Even for him, the gun was more of a toy to play with instead of a real necessity.

I know several police officers personally. None of them ever used their gun in the line of duty. They didn't have to.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007, 09:09:41 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #301 on: April 23, 2007, 09:10:06 AM »
if there is no crime, why do your taxi drivers carry mace?  bad tips?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #302 on: April 23, 2007, 09:10:16 AM »
Is a person who is happy a smart person?

Is a person who reasons that he will never have a fire and doesn't get insurance a happy person?   He can be... he is living in a lala land world and doesn't see the world as it is... many of the insane are very happy.

Are you telling me that no one is assaulted or killed in your country where a gun would have saved them?   Are you telling me that your population is not dieing out?

Are you saying that there is no chance that your home will ever be burglarized?

Yet... you live in such unrealistic fear that you put a seatbelt on every time you drive even tho you know you will never need it?

This seems to be at the least, the definition of ignorance is bliss.   Insanity at worst.

lazs

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #303 on: April 23, 2007, 09:20:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Is a person who is happy a smart person?

Is a person who reasons that he will never have a fire and doesn't get insurance a happy person?   He can be... he is living in a lala land world and doesn't see the world as it is... many of the insane are very happy.

Are you telling me that no one is assaulted or killed in your country where a gun would have saved them?   Are you telling me that your population is not dieing out?

Are you saying that there is no chance that your home will ever be burglarized?

Yet... you live in such unrealistic fear that you put a seatbelt on every time you drive even tho you know you will never need it?

This seems to be at the least, the definition of ignorance is bliss.   Insanity at worst.

lazs


Rofl lazs I drive 40 000 miles a year and I've had 3 accidents one being major one. I would be picking my face off the windshield unless for wearing a seatbelt. Not wearing one is plain dumb. Period.

As what goes for assaults and need for a gun - well if you hang around drunks at a drunks home you have a high potential of getting hurt. Personally I've never felt any need to take any action whatsoever for my personal safety in normal life. Sometimes in a bar fight I've relocated myself out of harms way.

I don't feel threatened by anyone at my own home so I have no need for any defensive measures. And I'm happy about it - I would hate to fear something so much that I'd have to arm myself.

Now if someone I knew or lived nearby would get burglarized some day - maybe my opinnion would / will change. Who knows. So far I see much more important to keep my house gun free just to protect my children from playing with one accidentally. I'm a really sloppy person and I just know that if I kept a gun at the house, I'd leave it somewhere where the kids would find it sooner or later.

This is a risk I'm not willing to take.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #304 on: April 23, 2007, 09:27:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
if there is no crime, why do your taxi drivers carry mace?  bad tips?


First of all, Finland is far from crime free.. But at the same time I can say nobody I know thinks they're not safe at their home. People don't have the fear of someone entering their house and doing whatnot. At least I don't know anyone who would myself included.

Taxi drivers carry money and drunk people regularly. Drunks do stupid stuff and here in Finland, one can get extremely drunk.

If you stay out of the vicinity of drunks, Finland is a very safe place to be.

My biggest worries in life is drunk drivers and moose on the road. A gun won't help with either one. A seatbelt on the other hand is about the best thing I can do to protect myself from those threats, outside of not driving as a part of my job.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Terror

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« Reply #305 on: April 23, 2007, 09:39:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Common sense?? Sometimes an individual should make sacrifices for the greater good???


That is exactly what our "Bill of Rights" was meant to prevent.  The loss of certain rights to the "greater good".  The Bill of Rights was implemented to stop a simple majority from removing "inalienable rights" from individuals without an extreme amount of oversight and review.  This concept is ingrained into every American (even the gun-haters) that individual rights are a cornerstone of our way of life.

The only way to remove these Rights is a full Constitutional Amendment repealing the earlier Amendment.  At this time, I would be extremely opposed to any amendment repealing the 2nd Amendment.  I believe a HUGE majority of Americans would be opposed to an amendment repealing ANY of the "Bill of Rights" amendments.

Terror
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007, 09:41:58 AM by Terror »

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #306 on: April 23, 2007, 09:50:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terror
That is exactly what our "Bill of Rights" was meant to prevent.  The loss of certain rights to the "greater good".  The Bill of Rights was implemented to stop a simple majority from removing "inalienable rights" from individuals without an extreme amount of oversight and review.  This concept is ingrained into every American (even the gun-haters) that individual rights are a cornerstone of our way of life.

The only way to remove these Rights is a full Constitutional Amendment repealing the earlier Amendment.  At this time, I would be extremely opposed to any amendment repealing the 2nd Amendment.  I believe a HUGE majority of Americans would be opposed to an amendment repealing ANY of the "Bill of Rights" amendments.

Terror


So you believe that every American has the born right to bear arms, even if they're criminally insane? Example of a fine principle applied wrong.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #307 on: April 23, 2007, 10:03:42 AM »
Anyway I want to end this argument to these words:

I don't feel a need to own a gun for personal protection. I've sometimes thought of applying for a permit for hobby use - but for reasons mentioned I don't want to risk having a weapon in my house at this moment.

Secondly, I'm wishing you guys could also live in a society where you wouldn't need guns to protect yourself. I'm wishing this with all sincerety.

I also believe it's your constitutional right to keep weapons - I can't really say anything about that even if I wanted to. No beef there.

Basically I'm just wondering how people don't see the amount of gun crime as a big problem that should at least try to be addressed in some way. Registering gun ownership and background checks prior to giving permits would be one step in that direction. But conspiracy / anti government types like lazs get a fit from the mere idea.. :)

That's their right also. I'm not trying or hoping to remove any of that from you. I'm just curious as an outsider, living in a different world.
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Offline Terror

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« Reply #308 on: April 23, 2007, 10:10:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
So you believe that every American has the born right to bear arms, even if they're criminally insane? Example of a fine principle applied wrong.


I didn't say that.  (Actually no where close...)  Once a citizen is proven that he does not respect the rights of others, he should loose most of his rights.  Even after the primary punisjment  (prison, etc) is completed, some rights should never be regained.  This is completely acceptable when an individual has made the choice to infringe on the rights of others.  But until a judge has made the decision to remove those rights through due process, the rights of that individual should not be infringed.

Terror

Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #309 on: April 23, 2007, 10:26:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
So you believe that every American has the born right to bear arms, even if they're criminally insane? Example of a fine principle applied wrong.


Yes in this country EVERY citizen is born with those rights. Those rights can only be taken away if the person is convicted of a felony or declared mentaly incompetent by approved authority.

So a convicted felon or someone declared mentaly insane can not buy, own, or have in their possesion a firearm. Now before you go off about Cho and his being able to purchase a gun you need to understand one simple FACT. The system is not perfect. Yes he was evaluated by competent authority as a danger to himself and others but that evaluation was NOT performed due to his breaking any laws therefor those records were not allowed to be sent to the law enforcement authorities. If his records had been sent it would have been a violation of HIS 4th amendment rights. Now if a judge had ordered his mental evaluation in connection with a crime and a warrant had been issued to secure such an evaluation then it would have made it on his federal record and he would NOT have been able to legaly purchase a gun.

What you are failing to understand is that even though we as Americans have many different laws concerning many different things, we have RIGHTS that cannot be taken away from us without due process. Granted many of these rights enable criminals to do some horrific things before due process has a chance to be affective, but that is a small price to pay for our freedom. Our Rights were put there for the greater good of our citizens.

Our Declaration of Independance, and our Bill of Rights spells this out for us very clearly.

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

Amendment II: Right to bear arms
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment IV: Search and arrest warrants
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #310 on: April 23, 2007, 10:30:52 AM »
YES SIR! I hear you loud and clear. Pls dont shoot me! :D
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #311 on: April 23, 2007, 10:42:53 AM »
Awww I wouldn't shoot anyone unless they were direct threat to me or those around me. I certainly wouldn't want to shoot you.

This has been a good discussion of this issue, but like any issue there is always going to be 2 sides to it.

I fully understand and respect your point of view, I just don't happen to believe the same thing and that's fine.

Debate is healthy for everyone because it gives everyone insight to how other people think and feel about things. Maybe some people will start to think differently and then there are hard headed people like me who will never change how they think about something. Whatever.

What I have enjoyed most out of this thread is "talking" with people like yourself from other countries and getting your perspective on my country. I find it educational and I like to learn new things all the time.

I honestly thank you for participating in this thread because I have a little better understanding of how other people view my country.

MrRipley
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #312 on: April 23, 2007, 10:45:35 AM »
right back at ya Hornet33
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline john9001

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« Reply #313 on: April 23, 2007, 10:59:26 AM »
definitions: a right-wing gun nut= a gun banning liberal that was just mugged.