gun control...

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Heh it all boils down to 'I have a right' forgetting the consequences. Didn't they already teach you in the army that there's no I in team?

But really, this whole thing is not worth an argument as the situation there is what it is. It's too late to close the bag when cat is already out of the bag. Theoretically my opinnion still is that everyone would be better off if there was less guns and gun related crime. But facts are facts and one should view the situation on realistic basis. Therefore I concur with you that your right to bear arms should be extended to take effect everywhere and at all times.

Recently I've heard excellent arguments supporting the carry right (such as similar murder rampage attempted and stopped in an area where people could carry) and successful rampages taking place in gun free zones mainly.

So self defence is a viable reason - private militia against govenrment however.. Well that sounds awfully 3rd world to me. No offense.

[mora]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Heh it all boils down to 'I have a right' forgetting the consequences. Didn't they already teach you in the army that there's no I in team?  

A place where there's no I is called communism.

[Hornet33]

Who's forgetting the consequences? Everyone I know including myself that has a CCW FULLY understands the responsiblities and the moral obligations that come with owning and carrying a firearm. We are on the "team" trying to defend ourselves and others by being pro-active and taking responsibility for ourselves and others. We have made the CHOICE to exercise our rights and become active citizens in our communities to fight against unlawfull people. The fact that we are willing to stand up and tell the world that yes we are armed and we are willing to make a moral stand if need be, scares those people that think every problem in the world can be solved with talk and a hug.

I've served in combat, and I have taken human life before. It wasn't plesant and it's not something I EVER want to do again, but that doesn't mean I wont if I have to. As I said earlier, I have used a gun 3 times preventing crime. 2 of those time the suspects were IN my home and according to the law in the states I was living in at the time, I would have been justified in shooting them, but it wasn't neccesary at the time so I didn't. I had the drop on them, they knew it, and offered no resistance so I mearly detained them for the OVER 30 minutes it took for the police to arrive.

This happens more often than not but no one ever hears about cases like this because no one was hurt. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm going to shoot and kill everyone that comes in my home. That will only happen if the situation dictates that I must take a life to save my own or anyone around me. That is the moral responsibility I'm talking about. Knowing when to pull the trigger and knowing when not too.

So I say to you that you are wrong by thinking that it all boils down to "I have the right"  It goes much deeper than that.

As far as your private militia agaisnt the government statement, I'll say this again. Political power has always come out of the barrel of a gun. In this country the powers of the government are derived from the will of the governed i.e. the citizens of this country. When the citizens are no longer allowed or able to control the government by force if neccesary, that government is no longer responsible to the citizens and you end up with a dictatorship or a monarchy style of government. That's not the American way. Fear the government that fears your guns, because once the government has no fear of the people, that government will then try and control every aspect of your life, and that's not freedom.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by mora
A place where there's no I is called communism.

That and the army. But that's hardly the point. The point is that sometimes an individual should make sacrifices for a greater good. Too much egoism is short sighted.

What goes to private militia, how many of you would really be ready to start a civil war? I mean really. Abandon everything that's valuable to you and start killing your countrymen. Where is the line drawn, what wrong doing is enough to destroy your society, economical structure and your place as world power in one strike?

Because that's what civil war will bring to you. Tempting eh?

In 19th century people had it so rough that life was a survival fight in any case. In todays world this stuff happens only in 3rd world who live where you were in 19th century today. It's a crack dream to think the US would plunge into a coup anymore unless maybe every Mexican decided to leave back home one day.

[mora]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The point is that sometimes an individual should make sacrifices for a greater good.

That's exactly the leftist reply I expected. What exactly is a "greater good"? Who defines it?

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by mora
That's exactly the leftist reply I expected. What exactly is a "greter good"? Who defines it?

Common sense. I always knew you were 100% egocentric but this comment really blows me away. Democracy by definition is making sacrifices for a greater good. Following a leadership that's elected through opinnions of the majority. The system really doesn't give a rats bellybutton about your ego.

You don't believe in democracy? Why were you again still living in Finland then?

[Maverick]

Common sense?? Sometimes an individual should make sacrifices for the greater good???

I would gather that as far as sacrifices are concerned you are all for someone else doing the sacrificing. I spent just about 2 decades in uniform daily placing myself in harms way for others facing folks of no good intent, armed and not. I spent 24 years in the Army Reserves as well. I think I have a better idea of sacrificing then most. I also learned that sacrificing basic rights is not about making the place better, it's about diminishing everyone in the population by removing something they had as a citizen because of irrational fear.

[mora]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Common sense. I always knew you were 100% egocentric but this comment really blows me away. Democracy by definition is making sacrifices for a greater good. Following a leadership that's elected through opinnions of the majority. The system really doesn't give a rats bellybutton about your ego.

You don't believe in democracy? Why were you again still living in Finland then?

I respect people's freedom and their right of ownership as long as they respect my freedom and right of ownership.  It's quite possible to have a democracy where those are the only "sacrifises" a person has to make. That's opposite of egocentric, and I couldn't possibly support anything that would violate those rights. You on the other hand seem to pick what you feel to suit you best.

You didn't answer the question about what the "greater good" is?

I won't answer the personal attack part because it would be too off topic.

[Dago]

Let's see how the gun ban in Austrailia is working out for them shall we?

In March 2000, WorldNetDaily reported that since Australia's widespread gun ban, violent crime had increased in the country.

WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:

    * Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
    * Assaults are up 8.6 percent.
    * Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent.
    * In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent.
    * In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily.
    * There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.

Yeah, it's working out real well for them.  Please excuse me if I don't care to see us copy their great handling of crime and guns.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by mora
I respect people's freedom and their right of ownership as long as they respect my freedom and right of ownership.  It's quite possible to have a democracy where those are the only "sacrifises" a person has to make. That's opposite of egocentric, and I couldn't possibly support anything that would violate those rights. You on the other hand seem to pick what you feel to suit you best.

You didn't answer the question about what the "greater good" is?

I won't answer the personal attack part because it would be too off topic.

Well, mora, your question cannot be answered hypothetically because something like greater good can not be defined by anyone. But in practise the elected officials pass legislation which in fact, define a greater good. One example could be a person who has a freedom of speech and right for his personal freedom. Then one day that person commits a crime. The court will then take these rigths away from the person for the greater good of the society. People are just better off without the perp walking the streets. And so the system works, for over a million free americans today slammed in jails. For the greater good of the society, an individuals right to build a garage nuclear reactor or a bomb has been taken away. Damn those legislators! Wouldn't it be cool to build a homegrown nuke?? Nobody would rob your house with THAT baby around!

Something like guns for example cause needless accidents and deaths of children, cause mass murder rampages in the hands of the nutbags, cause impulse suicides, cause an alarming rate of armed robberies, armed house entries, armed police resistance and whatever imaginable, for the greater good of the society one should get rid of guns all in all and limit their use to persons who can show they're up for the task. Now we all know this is just utopia because the pro gun ownership legislation has been in place for centuries. Therefore the whole country is packed with small arms easily accessible to any criminals and nutbags. As I earlier stated the higher the percentage of the population owns guns, the higher percentage of the nutbags of the population owns guns too, and the results are all too clear. Add in rampant drug problem to the mix and you have a mentally challenged, drugged out and violent gun owner living next door. Man that sounds good!

So in answer to your question, the legislator defines the greater good whichever seems fit for the society in question. All those pesky laws that you have to follow mostly are made with that aim. Who want's to pay taxes to support the military and police core when you can keep all your money for yourself, right? Who want's to follow the speed limits when the road is straight and your car could do 160mph easy right? Who want's to detain from murdering the neighbour after an argument when you really feel like you should take that shotgun off the wall and go pop one in his belly, right? Who want's to buy a motorcycle that has 220hp from the factory but is converted to max 150hp at the border to try and protect idiots from killing others and themselves (although still failing at that).. all those pesky laws designed to keep the society safe and running. Sure some are stupid, like the law that bans people from buying sex toys for their own pleasure or defines which kind of sex positions a person can have in the privacy of his home.. Sure those are really stupid laws which nobody surely follows. But at that time, however erroneus it's thoughts, the legislator saw fit to pass this kind of law for the greater good. You may disagree with it - but you have to live with it. Or move away. I hear Somalia has really few effective laws left anymore. There you can feel free, even to protect yourself from outside attacks. A friggin paradise.

[Yeager]

Ripley, forget it.  Guns are too deeply interwoven into the American experience.  We need to find other solutions to the vexing problem of a few human beings treating all the rest of us human beings like ****.  I still believe that some level of mental health testing would be useful but the reality of that is poor at best.  About the only solution I can think of is to allow decent people the right to carry firearms in places where the average person would rather not have firearms present, just the sort of places where nutjobs would go to murder a big group of toothless grazers, like kids sitting in class.

I have started carrying concealed again, after about 6 years of not doing it.  I guess I see it like this, one armed citizen can potentially save dozens, if not hundreds of lives if providence allows it.  One concealed carrier could have saved many lives last week.  Could have......

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Yeager
Ripley, forget it.  Guns are too deeply interwoven into the American experience.  We need to find other solutions to the vexing problem of a few human beings treating all the rest of us human beings like ****.  I still believe that some level of mental health testing would be useful but the reality of that is poor at best.  About the only solution I can think of is to allow decent people the right to carry firearms in places where the average person would rather not have firearms present, just the sort of places where nutjobs would go to murder a big group of toothless grazers, like kids sitting in class.

I have started carrying concealed again, after about 6 years of not doing it.  I guess I see it like this, one armed citizen can potentially save dozens, if not hundreds of lives if providence allows it.  One concealed carrier could have saved many lives last week.  Could have......

Realistically speaking I agree with you Yeager. In a perfect world things would probably be better off with less guns around but then again, in a perfect world no gun would ever be misused either.

[mora]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Somalia has really few effective laws left anymore. There you can feel free, even to protect yourself from outside attacks. A friggin paradise.

Are people's freedom and ownership rights respected in Somalia? I didn't say there shouldn't be any laws, and you made a straw man argument. There however should be considerably less laws, but the remaining laws should be strongly enforced, and real criminals should be properly punished.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by mora
Are people's freedom and ownership rights respected in Somalia? I didn't say there shouldn't be any laws, and you made a straw man argument. There however should be considerably less laws, but the remaining laws should be strongly enforced, and real criminals should be properly punished.

They're perfectly respected once you point your AK47 or bazooka at the drugged out raiding party that arrives at your yard. Just like you like it.

You implied yourself that there is no such thing as common good and as such, no law can be determined since every law limits someones rights in some way. Anarchy is, then, the only place where you want to be. Cue Somalia.

[lazs2]

ripley...  to answer your question of need.  

I have never been in a wreck where a seatbelt would help me...  most have not...  is that a reason to never use em? they are a huge pain in the butt to use.. don't you feel a little silly putting one on when it will never come into play?   paranoid?

I have never had a house burn down...  not many have...  we have fire departments to put em out.   why have insurance?   You are much more likely to need a gun in your life than you are fire insurance.

Those who think the cops can protect you... Have you not seen the film of our riots and the store owners with "assault weapons" defending their stores while the thugs walk down the street with loot from stores where the owners did not defend?   The truckdriver stomped half to death?   where were the police?

On a good day they don't go into those areas or.. if they do it is with locked doors on their cruisers.

Certainly half our homicides and most of our crime comes from one type of big city area and one or two minorities...

Without their contribution our homicide and crime rate is not very high... should I give up my right to defend myself and others on the off chance that some law that removes my rights will make these people behave better?

What gun laws in your countries (england, australia) made things better, reduced violent crime and homicide?  

Do you enjoy hiding in your locked room on the phone to the police while burglars ransack your home?    Why have you given up your rights?   Why do you lack human courage and responsibility?   Is that why your societies are decaying, because you have given these things over to a government?

I think yes.

lazs