Author Topic: Defense Against Mass Shooters  (Read 1988 times)

Offline Halo

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Defense Against Mass Shooters
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2007, 10:48:02 PM »
Some good insights and recommendations.  I'm thinking not so much of concealed carry permits and everyone armed as I am of perhaps trying to encourage mass counterattacks by people who are being shot at.  

Modern weapons can throw a lot of bullets, but if only one or two potential victims can reach attacker(s), perhaps attacks can be stopped or significantly reduced, at least within close ranges.  Cowering or running away if, say, within 20 feet only gives the attacker(s) more confidence and victims.  

Not saying I would be able to do it.  But hoping many people could if encouraged and trained that way as part of the curriculum of surviving in the modern world.

Some have mentioned karate or other self-defense with minimum weaponry except what is at hand, e.g., chairs, clubs, knives, whatever. Such training could also inculcate a measure of self-sacrifice that might be unprecedented.  It might suggest something as universally available as   ball bats or baseballs in strategic locations as potential emergency self defense assets.  

Unfortunately even the best of preparations may not deter suicidal attacks.  But better preparations could significantly reduce the damage.

For example, gunman enters classroom of 20 students.  None resist.  All are potential victims.  

Another example: gunman enters classroom of only six students.  Immediately they scatter, attempting to surround him, throwing books or anything else at him, reacting immediately and attacking him simultaneously from as many directions as possible.  

Will he be able to hit and incapacitate a bunch of screaming yelling hostile people coming at him from all over the place?  Certainly not as easily as them all sitting at their desks or lying motionless on the floor.  The attacker's odds of success are suddenly and dramatically reduced.  

It's all about temptation and control.  The more obstacles in the way of a an attacker, the less likely he will be able to seize or stay in control.  The more obvious the difficulities are to an attacker, the less likely he will attack.  

Flight 93 is probably our best recent example of heroic innocents fighting back. If that awful time ever comes when death is imminent, better to die rushing toward it than running away from it.

This is in no way a criticism of any victims.  It is a suggestion that maybe we need to reexamine our whole philosophy of passive resistance to attackers and replace it with active aggressive training in self defense not only individually but in group situations.  We all need each other more than ever.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 11:19:43 PM by Halo »
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
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Offline devild0g

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« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2007, 10:52:56 PM »
You cannot someone who feels no pain no pity, its sad but their is nothing you can do but fight with all your might. The bastard is lucky he killed himself if he hadn't we would not of given him the death penalty but a tormentuos life in prison. I bet even some of the inmates might hate him

Offline soda72

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« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2007, 10:55:03 PM »


looks like someone was arrested based on their race.....

Offline devild0g

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« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2007, 11:01:32 PM »
THAT IS NOT FUNNY GET OFF OF THE THREAD NOW AND DELETE YOUR POST! THAT IS OFF-TOPIC AND EXTREMLY DISRESPECTFUL

Offline FrodeMk3

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« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2007, 11:05:05 PM »
Halo, I would not recommend, nor should anyone else recommend, charging an armed gunman.

All you will do is wind up with blood on your hands.

If you do know that someone has a gun, don't assume he won't use it.

He might have a .22 in one hand-and a shotgun in the other. He might be ready for someone to try a rush.

A shotgun will stop a rush, gruesomely.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2007, 11:05:14 PM »
Quote
That's because an armed campus wouldn't stop a nut with a weapon of mass killing. Nothing short of martial law would've prevented today's tragedy. In the NRA's interest that anyone should be able to possess weapons able to take out an average infantry unit, we have given lunatics access to weapons of mass death. I just want to hear again how this protects our nation. I just want to hear again how so many people are killed with slingshots and knives. I just want their lobbyists to have the guts to crawl out from their rock when apathy is OFF. Bet you, that militia is AWOL.


Statistically, the most successful mass killers use a can of gasoline and a match, a box cutter and a 757, or a truck and a load of fertilizer and some diesel fuel. If you just look at "multiple" vs mass you can add alcohol to the list. More people still die each year from lightening than such firearm killings, usually a lot more, this year perhaps a few less. That's a fact.

As tragic as this is for the victims and their families, everyone reading this post has more to fear from a receptionist who stayed too long at the local happy hour and then decided to drive home. As I've said before, for me personally (and I bet more than a few reading this post) I actually know someone -- at least two individuals in my case -- who died from alcohol. How many from a firearm homicide? For me, 0, and I bet that's the case for most posting on this board. There will be days where, in America, an extra 30 or so people die DUI related deaths than on others, but no 24/7 media circus when they "only" die by the regular handful. Look at statistics and demographics -- no gangbangers here -- and firearm violence for all intents and purposes is statistically nonexistent. And even in the worst inner city neighborhoods you chance of dieing in a firearm homicide are very low statistically if you are not in an active gangbanger.

And, had CCW not been shot down last year by VT school officials, the extent of the killing would almost certainly been less. The killer was comfortable with the fact that he could chain shut the doors, methodically walk down the hall and kill people with no concern of anyone stopping him for some time. Frankly, that is the only way he could be as effective as he was. The real pros, terrorists, seldom waste their time on something as relatively ineffective as a fiream -- particularly in places like Israel where the victims shoot back. Even so, were I a student today I would likely not be sufficiently concerned about such threats to feel a need to go the CCW route. It's just extraordinarily rare in a population of 300 million.

As for the NRA not speaking out -- their opposite numbers are already playing this tragedy for all its worth. And, I'm sure you won't see heavy reporting on the CCW angle. This tends to be a fact free public debate.

Charon
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 11:20:35 PM by Charon »

Offline Suave

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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2007, 11:15:42 PM »
Schools, dorms, military barracks and hospitals are smorgasbords for mass murderers. They're all housed concentrations of defensless people, not unlike airliners.  Of course the airlines figured out that it was good to have plainclothes employees that secretly carry firearms.

Offline Halo

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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2007, 11:26:09 PM »
(Halo, I would not recommend, nor should anyone else recommend, charging an armed gunman.

All you will do is wind up with blood on your hands.

If you do know that someone has a gun, don't assume he won't use it.

He might have a .22 in one hand-and a shotgun in the other. He might be ready for someone to try a rush.

A shotgun will stop a rush, gruesomely.

(unquote)  


I'm assuming the gunman would use his weapons, but wondering if he could handle x number of people rushing at him from different directions at the same time.  

Home defense threads highlight the difficulty of people defending themselves against a single intruder, let alone more than one coming at them at the same time.  

The numbers and odds of success would vary a great deal depending on the situation, but it is so discouraging to keep hearing reports of large numbers of people losing so much to single or few attackers by not resisting at all.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 11:31:19 PM by Halo »
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
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Offline BBBB

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« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2007, 11:32:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by soda72


looks like someone was arrested based on their race.....


Looks like someone doesn't understand police procedure. Just because the handcuffs are put on you, that doesn't mean you are under arrest. They were looking for a suspect. That guy matches the description. He was detained until his identity could be worked out. That is all. It should be noted that hostages are handcuffed too sometimes, until the police can work out the good guy/guys from the bad.

-Sp0t

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2007, 11:39:00 PM »
There is no greater example of the depths of the mind control the anti-gun media and politicians have over the population than this:  post-911 there were those who were adamantly and stridently opposed to pilots on overseas flights being armed.

That same mindset will only gain strength in the coming days......and more people will become convinced that the disarming of the American public should go forward apace.

Reversing more than four decades of such propaganda will be impossible...individual responsibility for one's own security is a largely dead concept.

Offline soda72

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« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2007, 01:03:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BBBB
Looks like someone doesn't understand police procedure. Just because the handcuffs are put on you, that doesn't mean you are under arrest. They were looking for a suspect. That guy matches the description. He was detained until his identity could be worked out. That is all. It should be noted that hostages are handcuffed too sometimes, until the police can work out the good guy/guys from the bad.

-Sp0t


"Whether a person has been arrested depends not on the legality of his arrest but on whether he has been deprived of his liberty to go where he pleases."

 I understand this may be a necessary 'evil' given the situation.  However I can sympathize with the man in this picture, having gone through a similar experience myself.  I was "detained" by the local police department here in Flower Mound after a drive by shooting occurred and someone was killed.  My crime was the make, model and color of my car match the description of the offender, and I had the misfortune of being in the same area.  I did not enjoy having police officers pointing their weapons at me.  I did not enjoy having them scream at me to get out of my car and to keep my hands up.  I did not enjoy hearing the reason I was being "detained" for.  I did not enjoy having my hands handcuffed behind my back.  I espcially did not enjoy having to kneel down on cold pavement while they searched my car.  I suspect the man in that picture did not enjoy being detained either just becuase he was an asian man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 01:11:26 AM by soda72 »

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2007, 01:29:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
For example, gunman enters classroom of 20 students.  None resist.  All are potential victims.  
.....
Another example: gunman enters classroom of only six students.  Immediately they scatter, attempting to surround him, throwing books or anything else at him, reacting immediately and attacking him simultaneously from as many directions as possible.  
......
Flight 93 is probably our best recent example of heroic innocents fighting back. If that awful time ever comes when death is imminent, better to die rushing toward it than running away from it.
......
This is in no way a criticism of any victims.  It is a suggestion that maybe we need to reexamine our whole philosophy of passive resistance to attackers and replace it with active aggressive training in self defense not only individually but in group situations.


The first example is the closest to reality.

The second is Hollywood.  Students in a classroom are not going to react in a coordinated way to a situation they were so unprepared for.  Soldiers on patrol in a combat zone can respond that way most of the time..... not students in a academic environment.  You may get 1 or 2 two are quick to respond, but not the group, and not in a coordinated manner.

Flight 93, as I stated before, is not an applicable situation.  The people on that flight had time to learn about the other attacks over the phone and come together to plan the rush on the cockpit.  It was not spontaneous or immediate.   Not the same as a gunman entering a room and opening fire.

You will not change the "passive resistance" mentality that is so socially acceptable.  There will be calls for gun control.  For new laws.  (After all, it has all worked so well against illegal drugs in this country, right?)  There will be very public talking heads demanding in righteous indignation for the Powers That Be to "do something" to protect everyone from all possible senerios like this from ever happening again --- when they are not looking for scapegoats to take it in the neck over this tragedy from happening in the first place.  I'd bet there will be several new catchy "sound-bites" in common use before the week is out.

Oddly enough, gun sales this month will go wayyyy up, as will applications for CCW.  Happens every time something like this happens.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2007, 01:34:11 AM »
2 opitons.

1. Be aggressive and suprise the gunman by leaping towards him before he ever knew what happened. This would only work if you are one of the very few on this planet who would react to a threatening situation in that manner unlike the majority who would freeze, panic or just hesitate when facing danger.

2. Run. <---- best one.

I am 90% sure that if the students in this case were armed this would _not_ have ended this bad. However im 90% sure there would be many many more minor shootings over the years as a result of arguments, fights and alcohol related shootings that would make the total ammount of dead people alot higher than with these rare shootings.

Offline Warspawn

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« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2007, 02:11:18 AM »
What a tradegy.

One teacher or student with a concealed weapon permit and a pistol in their belt or bag would have saved alot of lives.  

Of course the story will be twisted in a completely opposite direction.  Anyone want to bet that the killer had no permit or legal weapon, and that regardless of the restrictions the anti-gun nuts want to clamp down on our rights, he would have gotten the weapon?
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Offline Suave

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« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2007, 02:27:33 AM »
After a gunman methodically executed a bunch of resturant patrons in Texas the state legalized concealed carry.