Author Topic: Defense Against Mass Shooters (Read 1986 times)

Halo · « **on:** April 16, 2007, 03:58:25 PM »

Practically speaking, what defense is best against killers who attack large numbers of people e.g., school and restaurant shootings? Being passive seems to not work.

Especially if some could get to the side or rear of an attacker, perhaps numbers could prevail and the shooter(s) could be swarmed and overpowered?

Anything seems better than docilely doing whatever the attacker has in mind.

Especially from you law enforcement and military veterans -- What can unarmed victims do to save themselves before help arrives?

SuperDud · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:01:43 PM »

Get a concealed carry permit.

kamilyun · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:15:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Halo
Practically speaking, what defense is best against killers who attack large numbers of people e.g., school and restaurant shootings? Being passive seems to not work.

Especially if some could get to the side or rear of an attacker, perhaps numbers could prevail and the shooter(s) could be swarmed and overpowered?

Anything seems better than docilely doing whatever the attacker has in mind.

Especially from you law enforcement and military veterans -- What can unarmed victims do to save themselves before help arrives?

I always think about what I have in my pockets or can grab easily that will make a good slashing or stabbing weapon. I pretty much always have my keys and credit cards with me. If by myself, I would try and hold the shooter's gun arm down, and slash at eyes/face with a pen/pencil/credit card or keys. My old roommate was into judo and commented that the most effective tactic in fight was to kick in someone's knees...so I'd try to do that too. If someone else could help me, hopefully they could wrestle the gun away.

I'd be interested to see what anyone with formal martial arts/hand-to-hand training had to say, though...

Quote

Originally posted by SuperDud
Get a concealed carry permit.

The problem is that even a concealed permit does not allow you to take guns into public places. Schools especially. I personally only know of one person who was able to get a special permit to carry his gun all the time. He worked at a major state university in the Southeast which is "generally" more pro-2nd than other states. I couldn't imagine something like that where I work now (university in California...).

john9001 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:30:37 PM »

i don't think you mean "public places", you mean "government places", schools are govt places.

interesting, if you carry a gun into a govt place without a CCP it is a felony, with a CCP it is a misdemeanor.

Vudak · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:34:54 PM »

It's strange but the other day a friend and I were watching some wildlife program and I made the comment that the difference between prey and predators is that the prey is stupid. You look at a pack of lions bursting into a herd of 100 wildebeest or such and have to figure that if the wildebeest ever decided in unison to charge the lions instead, things wouldn't go the lions' way.

Of course, barring incidents such as 9/11 or the more recent North African plane takeover, where everyone is speaking a different language than the attackers, I don't see how you could talk anyone into doing that, and if you're the only one that rushes them, you've pretty much guaranteed that things will go from bad to worse in a hurry. Not just for you, but for everyone.

Realistically though, you aren't going to find a group of people to take such a bold step simultaneously. At least not now.

I have read about students in certain school systems being trained to fight back from an early age, and being trained to all rush forward. It would be, um... "interesting?" (a horrible word, I know), to see if that did work, and I would have to guess that overall casualties would be lighter than today in similar situations, but I sure hope we never have to find out, and even if only one kid is killed, it still could be mine or yours.

Then again, you also run the risk of having a situation where the gunman wasn't actually going to open fire, but you just got him too. Of course, there's no real way to know if that would happen, so I guess it's just a gamble.

The bottom line, at least in my eyes, is that such a situation is one that the civilian probably can't make the best judgement of. They just aren't trained to take into account the variables of any given situation (is the gun automatic, is the safety on, how many gunmen, etc., etc.)

It's just a bad situation anyway you look at it. Sad news today indeed

Yeager · « **Reply #5 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:36:44 PM »

I haven't carried in years. Ive been in need of a new holster for some years. The best thing I can do is go get one and start carrying again.

I dont really want to but the alternative is not preferred.

Dago · « **Reply #6 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:39:01 PM »

If you are not armed, run like heck. If running isn't an option, pray. People will generally not attack or swarm an armed shooter unless they are within arms reach at the beginning.

FiLtH · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:47:38 PM »

I just hope Im never in that predicament. If everyone carried, Im sure the body count would be alot lower, and hopefully would deter people from doing this.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2007, 05:00:21 PM »

NOTHING will deter a DETERMINED individual who is intent on killing a large number of people, except his or her own death. PERIOD. This evidently was not an individual with any other intent than to kill as many as possible before killing himself. You never know until whoever it is starts killing people.

BTW · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2007, 05:00:25 PM »

I'm surprised a spokesman from the NRA hasn't used this opportunity to suggest defense tactics for students. Usually they're very vocal on the subject of guns and gun safety.

devild0g · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2007, 05:02:36 PM »

You are saying this in means of the virginia tech incident??? there is nothing you can do but pray and hope you can stop him.... you are pretty much taking a lump of meat to a gunfight not even a knife, you wouldn't be allowed to carry concealed weapon on campus because you yourself would than become a threat but mace and a little kick to the crotch will do the job if everyone where 2 be a hero and swarm him... till the day that people will put others before them arrives i really dont see these situations resulting with a less serious consequence

AquaShrimp · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2007, 05:05:13 PM »

Violence happens extremely fast. Even professional soldiers who get caught by surprise can be killed easily.

Run in a serpentine fashion to make yourself a harder shot. Try to escape. If you have a weapon and want to be a hero, run to an advantageous position then open fire. If you try to draw on a gunman who already has his weapon out and firing, he will shoot you.

Lets say for example you are in a classroom, and an average looking student comes in the door. You have your head in a book, or are looking out the window. All of a sudden you hear shots as the people in front of you are hit. Theres really not much you can do but try to escape. I'm not sure if its possible to jump through a window in real life. Glass is thick and strong, especially in government buildings. In that case, it may be best to charge the attacker. Once people get into a victim psychology, the will to fight back dissolves. And thats the type of psychological state you would be in. The military has to train soldiers over and over on something called 'immediate action drills' in order to override that natural panic/victim mentality.

devild0g · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2007, 05:10:05 PM »

panic sets in and "fight or flight" takes over.... you see a gun everything around you fades away you start imagining things, you cant think straight you shake its pure fear, its like someone pulling you off the street throwing you on the presidential chair and telling you to talk to the whole united states???? what would you do???? crap urself right than and there. The whole matter is who is faster, and who has the greater will power and intellectual skill to know what to do while still keeping your cool.

Shuffler · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2007, 05:15:13 PM »

In one classroom.... no one got out alive. A tragedy no matter how you look at it.

tedrbr · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2007, 05:56:23 PM »

Everything coming out right now about the incident at WV Tech is by varied television news sources. It is much to soon to get a clear picture and details of what happened exactly or develop a time frame. Last I heard, there still was not an identity on the shooter. Television news is much more t.v., much less "news" (almost none sometimes). I'll wait for written reports to come out.

We'll see lot's of "gun control" and "self defense" talking heads coming out soon enough.

CCW would not have meant anything here.... only place a person *may* have been able to keep a CCW gun would be in their privately owned locked car in the parking lot --- having a CCW does not allow the holder to carry into schools, courthouses, government buildings and so forth. So, it's a non-issue in this case (but won't stop it from being brought up by talking heads).

I'm guessing there will be a lot that comes out about how the warning got released to the students and teaches, how quickly, and what campus security could have done before the police got there on scene. How are they equipped? How are they trained?

Over 30 dead though? 29 wounded? Using a handgun (from some reports)? That means a break down somewhere, IMHO. Were all the deaths and wounded from the attacker, or were any caused by any responders (it happens). It will be interesting to see the break down and time line to see what really happened.

As to Halo's original post: what can be done?

Massed groups, untrained in anything like this situation, are not good at dealing with an armed attacker or violence. You get group panic. You get hysteria. Only the "Flight" part of fight-or-flight kicks in most of the time. Look to what happened aboard United Airlines Flight 93. They had time to consider their move and information from ground sources via phone calls that their hi-jacked plane was to be used as a weapon.... their decision to rush the cockpit did not come about early.

Even most police forces are not trained to rush ahead in such a situation (a lot of complaints made about police response to Columbine for example) immediately. They tend to encircle, contain, control, and try to make contact with the person or people making an attack --- that does not work against someone bent on self destruction.

Some with military background and training may be able to rush forward on the offensive, but even here, those in combat units tend to train together with their team, squad, and platoon, and operate as a group. There is a bit of "muscle memory" involved in reacting to an incident. That group dynamic and it's strength is lost when an individual solider finds himself in a situation like this shooting.

Then there is the risk involved when the responders get there. A keyed up police officer entering a highly dangerous and mostly unknown environment can be nearly as hazardous to you as an attacker.