Author Topic: Perk the M4 (Read 1771 times)

humble · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2007, 02:41:29 PM »

I was engaged in a "long range" duel with lefty earlier. Range varied (he moved) from 3600-2600 or so...I was using smoke to "defend" while blinking the spawn. He relocated a bit closer and we engaged at roughly 3100...I recorded 1 hit (richochet) and heard 2-3 richochets and 1 "hit" in return. I guess either my smoke or his lack of success (in killing me) led him to move closer....final range was probably 2600-2700. He hit me multiple times tracking me and I hit him twice more (richochets). I'd say it took 4 maybe even 5 total "hits" to kill the M4 and that he had an equal number of richochets total.

The FF has no ability to stand and duke it out at those ranges with the Tiger. I am suprised at the number of hits....but he was shooting thru smoke so I'd assuming he was firing on range only. Very possible multiple hits to the same spot were involved...

Willfly · « **Reply #16 on:** April 21, 2007, 09:41:04 PM »

It kinda does make since to perk the Sherman VC Firefly (It's not designated a M4 according to British Designations (Which is where the M4A4 Medium tank were sent from the USA were converted))

The Tiger I may be perked not only because of a Superior 88mm KampfwagenKanone(KwK) 36 L/56 but because of it's low production rate.
The Tiger I had a production rate of approximately 1400 tanks, Compared to 7394 tanks produced of the PzKpfW IV Ausf H

The Sherman with the 17Pdr. (All Firefly variants) had about 2346 tanks made, Giving it a legitimate reason to be perked. Perking tanks merely because of superior armament does not make sense. It is the number of these tanks produced and distributed into military units that should matter.

theNewB · « **Reply #17 on:** April 22, 2007, 02:07:28 AM »

Quote

The Sherman with the 17Pdr. (All Firefly variants) had about 2346 tanks made, Giving it a legitimate reason to be perked. Perking tanks merely because of superior armament does not make sense. It is the number of these tanks produced and distributed into military units that should matter.

thats what ive thought aswell but apparently not.

Husky01 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 22, 2007, 10:43:39 AM »

The Sherman only needs a light 5 perk points or so, would really slow down the massive numbers of Sherman's around.

hubsonfire · « **Reply #19 on:** April 22, 2007, 10:59:31 AM »

Number produced is not the benchmark for perking.

humble · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2007, 11:40:46 AM »

Actually the firefly probably isnt really a "perk" tank. The M-26 or JS-1 would be. The FF is probably about the same speed overall as the T-34/85. If you look at the eventual release of the Panther it would be the true perk ride. It would bump the Tiger down (IMO). If we view the "easy 8" as the true LW sherman it would be an ENY equivelent of 20 (guessing)....vs the PZIV (20-25). The Tiger is perked but the firefly has no ability to handle the tiger except at close range or from ambush. The T-34/85 will be more formidable then the FF...so the FF/T34-85 are really the pony/la-7 of the ground war (when/if its "fleshed out").....from what pyro said the FF will be perked once the other sherman models come out. The smoke modeling is a bigger issue then the gun. I asked in thread if that is correct optical modeling. I do know you can see thru fog close in so maybe optics do help you see thru smoke....otherwise the easy8 will be almost as deadly as the FF (the M1 76.2 had roughly same pop as the T34/85) and had twice the rate of fire as the firefly). An Easy 8 will carve up a tiger almost as easily as the FF. If its modeled with the US equivelent to the T-34 HVAP then any of the 3 "flavors" of HVAP have roughly 150+ mm penetration at 500M and 130mm+ at 1000M.

The entire purpose of the easy was tank on tank combat, the original concept of the M4 was as a combined arms weapon. Hopefully the "E8" will have a loadout with the HVAP available (priority for HVAP went to the M-10/M18 TD units)...

If you get a correctly modeled Easy 8 {especially with some HVAP loadout option} you wont see much difference between the FF and E8 (especially if rate if fire is correctly modeled){I think the FF reload is to fast BTW}. The US M1 76.2mm was actually a very good antitank weapon...inferior to the 88mm or 76mm in Panther (and FF) but way ahead of the 7.5 cm KwK 40/L48 used on the PZIV...

Willfly · « **Reply #21 on:** April 22, 2007, 11:53:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Number produced is not the benchmark for perking.

Well, why not? It makes total sense to perk it based on production rate because if someone has better equipment in actual war, you just gotta deal with it. It's not like the Geneva conventions or something states you must use better equipment sparingly. War is not a game.

humble · « **Reply #22 on:** April 22, 2007, 11:55:29 AM »

If you want a true US "perk" tank then model the M4A3E2 "Jumbo" with the M1 76.2mm. This was a true tiger hunter normally deployed as the lead tank in a CC {combat command} colume. It was almost impervious to tiger fire.

There is nor question that the M4 was an inferior tank overall to the Pz V, PZVI and the T-34/85. The "stock" M4 was also inferior to the PzIV (IMO). This was however entirely due to the medium velocity cannon. The E8 & FF were both equipped with a better gun capable of defeating most german armor under certain conditions...so the Tiger (and other not yet modeled tanks) are not invulnerable. The FF has no advantage over the tiger and really none over the PzIV since both guns kill each other at normal range. The T-34 is still at a tremendous disadvantage (until the t-34/85 arrives)...

Bronk · « **Reply #23 on:** April 22, 2007, 03:30:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
If you want a true US "perk" tank then model the M4A3E2 "Jumbo" with the M1 76.2mm. This was a true tiger hunter normally deployed as the lead tank in a CC {combat command} colume. It was almost impervious to tiger fire.

Pershing= US perk tank

Bronk

Guppy35 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 22, 2007, 03:49:48 PM »

It would be silly to perk the Firefly. What I'm seeing here is more of a "My Tiger is no longer impenatrable and I don't like it".

Unperk the Tiger if it's that big a deal.

humble · « **Reply #25 on:** April 22, 2007, 04:16:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bronk
Pershing= US perk tank

Bronk

Yup, but I dont know how much real combat it saw. The Jumbo saw alot of action for its limited numbers....It would be funny to watch a tiger bounce a dozen shots off the front of a jumbo ...

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #26 on:** April 22, 2007, 04:49:52 PM »

There is a great video and series of photographs of of a Pershing hunting a Tiger (think it was a Tiger II) in some city and killing it. The video starts out with a Sherman and a Pershing in trail traveling down a street when they are ambushed by a Tiger and the Sherman is knocked out. The Tiger sees the Pershing and tries to haul arse out of Dodge but doesn't quite make it as the Pershing catches up to it and kills it. The photographs were taken from some guy that was overlooking the spot where the Tiger died and caught the action on film.

ack-ack

Rino · « **Reply #27 on:** April 22, 2007, 05:04:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
There is a great video and series of photographs of of a Pershing hunting a Tiger (think it was a Tiger II) in some city and killing it. The video starts out with a Sherman and a Pershing in trail traveling down a street when they are ambushed by a Tiger and the Sherman is knocked out. The Tiger sees the Pershing and tries to haul arse out of Dodge but doesn't quite make it as the Pershing catches up to it and kills it. The photographs were taken from some guy that was overlooking the spot where the Tiger died and caught the action on film.

ack-ack

I've seen one like this, but the German tank was a Panther which later
brews up after some of the crew try to bail out.

humble · « **Reply #28 on:** April 22, 2007, 11:26:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rino
I've seen one like this, but the German tank was a Panther which later
brews up after some of the crew try to bail out.

P-26 vs Panther

Kev367th · « **Reply #29 on:** April 23, 2007, 12:04:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Willfly
It kinda does make since to perk the Sherman VC Firefly (It's not designated a M4 according to British Designations (Which is where the M4A4 Medium tank were sent from the USA were converted))

The Tiger I may be perked not only because of a Superior 88mm KampfwagenKanone(KwK) 36 L/56 but because of it's low production rate.
The Tiger I had a production rate of approximately 1400 tanks, Compared to 7394 tanks produced of the PzKpfW IV Ausf H

The Sherman with the 17Pdr. (All Firefly variants) had about 2346 tanks made, Giving it a legitimate reason to be perked. Perking tanks merely because of superior armament does not make sense. It is the number of these tanks produced and distributed into military units that should matter.

If things were perked according to numbers made -

Ta-152 (which used to be)
The uber (total of around 25 made) 110 version
3 cannon Lala
Seafire IIc we have (if this version ever existed, and there's doubts)

Looking at the bright side the XIV would be unperked.

So I guess it's not on numbers made.

But of course the Sherman Vc is British, so it's as good a reason as any to perk it.