Author Topic: Strong Willed TEXAS Woman  (Read 1103 times)

Offline ravells

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Strong Willed TEXAS Woman
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2007, 09:53:40 AM »
Thanks Toad, but that's amazing. Does that mean that individual states have the right to fetter the freedoms guaranteed in the federal constitution on anything or is it just the 2nd Amendment?  

Or is it that there is legal authority which says imposing conditions on the right to bear arms is not by itself a breach of the second amendment? I.e. you can impose whatever conditions you like as long as you don't abolish the right itself.

Ravs
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 09:56:16 AM by ravells »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2007, 10:39:56 AM »
Actually, it's all in contention.

For example, a US District Court just struck down the Washington, DC, gun ban. It is being appealed and could make it to the SC.

Gun rights are always in contention here; there's no denying there's a segment that wishes the 2nd was not in the Constitution so they are continually trying to restrict it. Obviously, there's a segement of the population that resists restrictions.

Ebb and flow, Yin and Yang. So it goes on.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2007, 10:52:02 AM »
There are restrictions on every right we have as Americans. You can't yell Fire in a movie theater can you? No it's against the law, BUT the 1st Ammendment gives you the right to freedom of speach. So WHY can't you yell fire? Because COMMON SENSE dictates that doing something like that is dangerous. With that in mind it makes sense that you do not allow convicted criminals or the mentaly unstable to own a gun. Why? Because it's dangerous.

I am VERY pro gun. I also believe that we need some common sense laws concerning gun ownership. Yes you MUST be a legal adult to own a firearm. Makes sense. NO you may not own a firearm if you are a convicted criminal or have been by deemed by competent authority of being mentally unstable. Makes sense. I also believe anyone that wants to buy a gun should provide proof of weapons safety training. That's not a requirment now but it should be in my opinion. It makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is the arguement that banning guns all together will make this country safer? How will it do that? How will taking my right to defend myself away from me make me feel safer? It doesn't because I KNOW that I can't trust the government to bail me out when someone breaks into my home. The only person at that point I can count on is ME.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline john9001

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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2007, 11:00:47 AM »
"You can't yell Fire in a movie theater can you? No it's against the law, "


well, what if it is on fire?

Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2007, 11:24:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
"You can't yell Fire in a movie theater can you? No it's against the law, "


well, what if it is on fire?


Then your not exercising your freedom of speach, you are providing a public service. BIG differance. Again COMMON SENSE.

Unfortantly in this country common sense isn't so common anymore, and that's the BIG problem we face here. I mean after all these school shootings and stuff in "gun free" zones, you'd think common sense would break out and people would think to themselves, "Hmmm maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all" but NOOOOOOOOOO, lets pass more laws and make even more gun free zone so the criminals, i.e. those folks that don't care about the laws to begin with, have even more targets to pick from in the future. Yeah that's real smart.:huh
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline ravells

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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2007, 12:25:27 PM »
Unfortunately (or fortunately) the courts don't recognise common sense per se as authority for an argument. Often, what may be common sense to you may not be common sense to someone else.

In interpreting the constitution, the Judge has to put himself into the mind of its drafters and come to a view as to what was intended if the plain words are ambigious or yeild a manifestly unjust result. Often this can be the judge exercising his or her common-sense on the issue, but not always as there is precedent to consider as well.

As Toad has pointed out, there is a lot of litigation about the scope of the 2nd Amendment, and it's just one of those areas where different people have different views as to what the answer is. It looks like it's an area in which there are no easy answers particularly because the political and social landscape have changed so much since the 2nd Amendment was drafted that many of the reasons that preyed on the drafters' minds then are irrelevant now.

It's a bit like trying to put a modern meaning to 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. '

Offline Toad

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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2007, 12:34:05 PM »
Ravs, there is a rather large amount of detailed writing from the Founders on the issues of firearms and the citizenry. Additionally, there are the Constitutions of the the original 13 states that set out firearms rights for their citizens prior to ratifying the Federal Constitution.
 
It really isn't a matter of interpretation.

There is a lot of litigation but that's simply because there's a lot of people who are anti-gun that would like to twist, obscure and change the clear and simple meaning of the 2nd.

Any fair hearing on what the Founders meant comes to an inescapable conclusion. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline ravells

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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2007, 12:52:03 PM »
With respect Toad, the Supreme Court judgments I've just looked at on the 2nd Amendment Wiki say to me that there has been interpretation over the years carried out to discover the meaning of the words.

What I found interesting in particular (which I think answers my question about the ability of the state to restrict gun ownership) is the decision in Presser which seems to say that the 2nd Amendment applies to Congress only, so although Congress can't restrict the right of gun ownership, individual states can (which I think is kind of weird). Presser was discussed in a later decision which said:

Quote
 As we have noted, the parties agree that Presser is controlling, but disagree as to what Presser held. It is difficult to understand how appellants can assert that Presser supports the theory that the second amendment right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right which the state cannot regulate when the Presser decision plainly states that "[t]he Second Amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this . . . means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress.

Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2007, 01:08:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH
I like the idea of people carrying. If nothing else it forces people to respect others, just in case they have a gun. The crazys would be weeded out over time, with less body count.


What Filth said..
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline lukster

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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2007, 01:30:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ravells
With respect Toad, the Supreme Court judgments I've just looked at on the 2nd Amendment Wiki say to me that there has been interpretation over the years carried out to discover the meaning of the words.

What I found interesting in particular (which I think answers my question about the ability of the state to restrict gun ownership) is the decision in Presser which seems to say that the 2nd Amendment applies to Congress only, so although Congress can't restrict the right of gun ownership, individual states can (which I think is kind of weird). Presser was discussed in a later decision which said:


You can't say that states have the right to overide the 2nd amendment without giving them the right to trample the entire bill of rights.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2007, 02:06:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ravells
With respect Toad, the Supreme Court judgments I've just looked at on the 2nd Amendment Wiki say to me that there has been interpretation over the years carried out to discover the meaning of the words.

What I found interesting in particular (which I think answers my question about the ability of the state to restrict gun ownership) is the decision in Presser which seems to say that the 2nd Amendment applies to Congress only, so although Congress can't restrict the right of gun ownership, individual states can (which I think is kind of weird). Presser was discussed in a later decision which said:


Ravs, did you read Miller? The basis for that decision was that a "sawed off shotgun" was not a military weapon. There is ample history that clearly shows sawed off shotguns were used in the Revolution, the Civil War and not long before Miller the Army issued 16,000+ Winchester 97 sawed off Trench Shotguns in World War I. There is a specific example of what I meant by twisting, obscuring and changing the meaning of the 2nd.

As for Presser, would you then logically conclude as Iron just pointed out that the States can regulate the right to free speech (1st Amendment)? It simply doesn't wash; Presser is another flawed decision.

The meaning of the 2nd is clear. It is supported as an individual right by the Founders other writings and by the state constitutions of the early states that later ratified the Constitution.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline john9001

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« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2007, 02:09:35 PM »
what toad said:aok

Offline ravells

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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2007, 02:43:56 PM »
I havn't read any of the decisions in full, just the excerpts in the Wiki entry.

I read the excerpts of the Miller decision and agree that it doesn't make sense to uphold the conviction on the grounds that a sawn off shotgun is not a military weapon. It smells of a policy decision, but that's just my gut reaction. ... But I was dealing with your point about the interpretation being crystal clear.  It seems to me that the second amendment is need of a modern overhaul to clarify exactly what (if any) the restrictions to gun ownership in the US should be (children, the insane, previous convictions etc).  I suspect it's too much of a political hot potato for any politician to want to touch.

You may say that Presser and Miller are flawed, but they're the law and whether we think they're right or wrong is irrelevant. Like Luckster, I find it strange that states can restrict Federal rights which are supposed to be inalienable. BUT as Horney pointed out there has to be an application of common sense (shouting 'Fire' in the Cinema).

So...it looks like the 2nd Amendment is a bit creaky in the bones and needs an injection of new life, but as I said that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Ravs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2007, 03:18:06 PM »
I don't think it needs anything except to be followed.

It's real simple, it's real clear and it is supported by history.

As I said, the only arguments are made by those trying to twist it into something it is not.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2007, 11:02:41 AM »
rav..  I believe that we should get back to the second with no restrictions save...

What are the "people"  are they the insane?  we say not.. we take away their constitutional rights all the time... not just the second.

Are they minors?  seems not..  they have no constitutional rights as "people" that I can see.

Are they criminals?  no.. not hardly.. we put them on parole where they give up their rights to get out early.

So what is your point?   I have no conflict on the second and see no restrictions as being acceptable.  

lazs