High Altitude woes for the Luftwaffe

[Widewing]

When Combat Theater arrives, the Luftwaffe will be at a major disadvantage. Consider that the bombers will be flying at about 25,000 feet, which is well above the altitude where the 190s and 109s offer their best performance.

In preparation for CT, we have done extensive combat testing at altitudes between 25,000 and 30,000 feet. In short, the Focke Wulfs will be hard pressed to survive against the P-51s and P-47s, much less deal effectively with the bombers. The best handling 190, the A-5, can only manage 389 mph at 30k, 53 mph slower than the P-51B.

That said, the 109s do handle somewhat better than the 190s, but are slower still. This means that they will also be unable to compete with the Mustangs, Jugs, P-38s and Spitfires above 25k.

Last evening, Wmaker and I did some combat testing flying from a 30k field in the TA. Wmaker was flying the 109G-6, I flew the P-47D-25. It was immediately obvious that the 109 had nothing for the Jug at 30k. It was hopelessly outclassed in every respect. Only down below 20k did it have any chance. Down on the deck, the P-47D-25 was able to fight the G-6 to a draw until the Jug finally ran out of WEP. Even then, in a turning contest, the G-6 only had a small advantage, requiring about 10 level circles to gain 1/2 of a turn.

Wmaker and I agreed that all aircraft seem to turn better than they should using flaps. Some more than others. We also agreed that the 190s should turn better than they do. The Thunderbolts fly like Spitfires in comparison.

Here's some general performance numbers compiled over the past few days. Those flying for the Luftwaffe in CT will have to employ superior team tactics to have any hope at being competitive. 50% fuel for all tested. I selected aircraft in service in from June of 1943 through June of 1944.

Model: Speed @ 30k / sustained climb at 30k (rounded up, will vary with weight)

Bf 109G-2: 376 mph / 1,300 fpm
Bf 109G-6: 370 mph / 1,200 fpm
Bf 109G-14: 373 mph / 1,150 fpm
Fw 190A-5: 389 mph / 900 fpm
P-38J: 399 mph / 1,400 fpm
P-47D-11: 436 mph / 1,500 fpm
P-47D-25: 431 mph / 1,650 fpm
P-51B: 442 mph / 1,700 fpm
P-51D: 424 mph / 1,200 fpm
Spitfire IX: 403 mph / 1,700 fpm

My regards,

Widewing

[Krusty]

I know the very high-alt missions pushed 25k and 27k, but wasn't it more common to have bombers at about 20k?

Maybe HTC will have them a little lower for this first TOD?

It doesn't seem like much of a difference, but for the LW it would mean life instead of death (or, should I say, "a fighting chance"?)

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Widewing
Those flying for the Luftwaffe in CT will have to employ superior team tactics to have any hope at being competitive.  

This mirrors reality.  It has the potential for killing the CT, though, if CT assumes that someone needs to fly for the Germans.

...er...are you thinking of testing the A8...?

- oldman

[leitwolf]

Thanks for sharing those numbers

I really hope there will be some kind of redeeming game incentives to play on the Luftwaffe side.
The planes will suck in comparison, perhaps not as bad as we might think (speaking from past scenario experience the LW side usually performs better than raw plane data would indicate), but enough to impose a serious penalty on LW players.

WW2 wasnt fair, and i think the historical strengths and weaknesses in the CT planeset are as good as they get, but as a future game somehow 8thAF vs. LW needs to be "fair" in order to be a worthwhile past time.

Let's hope they can pull something magical out of their hat and preserve both historical accuracy and enjoyable gameplay.

[Dux]

As someone who usually flies Axis in FSO, this is not news. Yeah... Allied planes handle much better. And it's not just a numbers comparison thing, either... unless you have some numbers to explain why the 190s flip over on their back at the slightest hint of a control input. Or what makes the 109 slats seem to slap out asymmetrically.

[Larry]

I find it funny that the Bpony is better then the Dpony at that alt.


I don't care if the fighers out performs my 109 all I want to do is dive into 50+ formations of buffs and see if I can come out alive. If I remember right didnt the LW get as many bombers they could then run to the deck when fighters came close?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty
I know the very high-alt missions pushed 25k and 27k, but wasn't it more common to have bombers at about 20k?

Maybe HTC will have them a little lower for this first TOD?

It doesn't seem like much of a difference, but for the LW it would mean life instead of death (or, should I say, "a fighting chance"?)

Typically, the B-17s flew between between 24k and 27k, with the B-24s down between 22k and 24k. This means that the fighter escorts will be higher. In general, the escorts were assigned altitudes from 20,000 to 35,000 feet depending on the mission plan and the bomber type being escorted.

I would not rule out the use of medium bombers or medium level missions by heavy bombers (most often against targets in France and the low countries).

Those flying Luftwaffe will have their chances, but against heavy bombers at high altitude, they will have a difficult time of it.

My regards,

Widewing

[Kweassa]

Wmaker and I agreed that all aircraft seem to turn better than they should using flaps. Some more than others. We also agreed that the 190s should turn better than they do. The Thunderbolts fly like Spitfires in comparison.

 
 Amen to that.

 Wmaker might also have mentioned that the 109s we have currently are actually a vast improvement over the older 109 versions - the ever-so-slight raise in flap deployment speeds had an incredibly benign effect when it came to combat maneuvering. There are still some harsh rudder+flap maneuvers the US planes can do, which the LW planes are hard pressed to match, but still, compared to previous incarnations of the 109 that small raise in flap speed did wonders.

 This is especially evident when the fight enters a series of semi-loops with hard ruddering - whereas the US planes can keep their flaps down over 250mph, and maintain a tight looping radius, planes like the 109 or the 190 would lose serious ground while the plane entered donwards flight towards the ground. The plane would accelerate, flaps would retract, and the plane loses ground with every semi-loop that occurs until finally the US plane lands behind the 109 or the 190.

 Fortunately, if the speed can be contained at 200mph IAS max, the 109 can still maintain first notch of flaps nowadays. Thank god for that..

[Krusty]

Kweassa,

Originally posted by Kweassa
Wmaker might also have mentioned that the 109s we have currently are actually a vast improvement over the older 109 versions - the ever-so-slight raise in flap deployment speeds had an incredibly benign effect when it came to combat maneuvering.

While I do agree the flaps are better now that they can be lowered at 200mph, I disagree as to them being the reason 109s handle better.

109s handle better since the airflow re-coding, and since the 109 model revamp. Before this, the 109s and especially 190s suffered greatly in many ways, including snap stalls if you flew at speeds below 200mph (even gentle turns produced rapid alternating wing dips in 190s). It was a bad flight model, in regards to how air flowed over the wings.

When they changed the code to recompute things, it removed these buggy flight profiles, and I think that was the single largest benefit the 190s/109s have ever had in this game.

The flaps are definitely nice, but IMO I don't use them that much in a dogfight. I don't need to, now that I can fly around without wobbling like a fish on a spear.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Larry
I find it funny that the Bpony is better then the Dpony at that alt.


I don't care if the fighers out performs my 109 all I want to do is dive into 50+ formations of buffs and see if I can come out alive. If I remember right didnt the LW get as many bombers they could then run to the deck when fighters came close?

At high altitude, the P-51B excels due to having a supercharger designed for that altitude. In comparison, the P-51D is more of a compromise, with a supercharger that provides for max speed at 25k (where it can do 441 mph in AH2). Be advised that the P-51B loses almost 40 mph at 30k if not using WEP. However, the P-51D shows no increase in MAP with WEP at 30k, meaning that its 424 mph can be sustained for as long as it has fuel. This is one of several reasons why the P-51D is so deadly. Another reason is that it retains speed better than any other fighter (much better). This is because it has the lowest drag coefficient by a wide margin.

As I see it, if you dive to far away from the escorts, it will be very difficult to climb back up and get at the bombers. To be successful, all the escorts need do is force the German fighters to dive. They need not follow.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when the ETO gets to 1945, the P-47N could be substituted for the P-47M... At 30k, the P-47N is 103 mph faster than the Bf 109G-14 and climbs at 1,900 fpm. This performance is much better that of the 109K-4 and Ta 152 (at 30k)....  Fortunately, only three squadrons were flying the mighty M model. Should HTC ever model the M model.... Well, it will cause much angst for those facing it up high (expect 480 mph+ and well over 2k per minute climb at 30k).

My regards,

Widewing

[TimRas]

Couple of comments:

1. Historically, after the possible fight the Allied escorts needed to fly back all the way back to England from over the Germany, which means that they must usually have had close to full internal fuel when the fight started. LW fighters needed only enough to land to airfields below them.

2. Anybody who has participated in squadops or snapshots simulating 8.AF vs LW knows that turning performance is not very important. That is because the mutual support of the wingmen and the necessity to protect the bombers makes lengthy 1 vs 1 fights unlikely. Speed, climb and firepower is what you need.

[leitwolf]

which is why the P47 owns @30k.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Widewing
Another thing to keep in mind is that when the ETO gets to 1945, the P-47N could be substituted for the P-47M... At 30k, the P-47N is 103 mph faster than the Bf 109G-14 and climbs at 1,900 fpm. This performance is much better that of the 109K-4 and Ta 152 (at 30k)....  Fortunately, only three squadrons were flying the mighty M model. Should HTC ever model the M model.... Well, it will cause much angst for those facing it up high (expect 480 mph+ and well over 2k per minute climb at 30k).

My regards,

Widewing

If the ETO gets to 1945 the LW will have the 109K which outperforms the P-47N in all regimes of flight at and below 25k. Also the LW will have the Me 262 (since mid-1944 in fact).

[Lusche]

Originally posted by leitwolf
Thanks for sharing those numbers

I really hope there will be some kind of redeeming game incentives to play on the Luftwaffe side.
.

As far as I know, in CT you can improve your pilot's characteristics over the time.
Now if a German pilot is shot down, he can bail over friendly territory, an allied pilot hower would be captured most of the time. So if proper implemented, a player on the allied side would have to be much more careful. If he's shot down, he loses all that points, experience and bonus traits of that pilot. The German pilot can just reup the next plane.

[straffo]

Will the bomber able to inflict real damage at 27K ?