High Altitude woes for the Luftwaffe

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Charge
P47N in European theater? Was it widely used and how many where there?

-C+

PS. "...er...are you thinking of testing the A8...?"
I don't think anyone is interested in A8. There were people that were interested but they have "gone" away.

No P-47Ns were deployed to the ETO (as stated earlier in the thread). We were speculating "what-ifs" should the P-47N be the substitute for the better performing P-47M.

I have tested the 190A-8... It's greater weight hurts it and it is inferior to the A-5 in handling and performance. Of course, there's those guns....

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Bruno
Cowboys and Indians by Jeff Ethell posted by Neil Page

Neil Page did the English Translation for JG 300. A Chronicle of a Jagdgeschwader in the Battle for Germany. Volume 1: June 1943 to September 1944 by Jean-Yves Lorant and Richard Guyat

I am sure WW know who Jeff Ethell is.

The article is a decent read. Some things to look for:

'As far as the eye could see stretched wing after wing of...'

'Buried deep in the stream'

Dahl's radio request:

'Have the enemy in sight in northerly direction over Trier - 6500m (21325ft) - the Pulks are without escort cover. Shall I attack?'

'Nosing up after running through the low box..'

Anyway, for those who don't want to pick up a book the Ethell article is representative of almost all Sturm pilot accounts.

You missed the sentence that preceded that which you posted...

"The B-17s were at 25,000 feet"

Did you happen to notice that one of the bomber groups involved was the 303rd? From Toad's link again...

15 August 1944
Airfield near Wiesbaden, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Crews Lost: 9 A/C, 23 KIA, 48 POW, 10 EVD
Crewmembers Lost or Wounded: 1 KIA, 2 WIA
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 46 minutes
Bomb Load: 4 x 1,000 lb G.P. M43
& 4 x 500 lb M17 Incendiary bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 25,600, 25,500 & 24,900 ft
Ammo Fired: 50,050 rounds

Thirty-nine 303rd BG(H) B-17s took off, flying as the 41st "B" CBW formation. Thirty seven aircraft dropped a total of 147 1,000-lb. M43 and 146 500-lb. M17 incendiary bombs on the primary target. Hits were made on one hangar with a near miss on another. The airfield landing ground sustained numerous hits, the entire area was blanketed by incendiary bombs. Three hits were made on a railroad line. Bombing was from 25,600, 25,500, and 24,900 ft.

Notice the altitudes of the squadrons.... Not 1,000 yards apart, but just 700 feet from low squadron to high squadron. Notice also that the lowest was a lot higher than 6,500 meters (an estimation by the German pilot, I'm sure).

Oh, and yes, you could say that I have heard of Jeff Ethell. After Jeff died in the P-38 crash, Warren Bodie recruited me to fill his co-writing spot on a part-time basis. Warren and I shared several bylines before he found a full-time aviation writer to fill the position permanently.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Widewing
Yeah, I did read it, but apparently you didn't.

Note Group A, Group B, and Group C....

The altitude difference is between GROUPS, not SQUADRONS of a Group.

The box formation was for each Group. The spacing is for the individual squadrons of that Group.

Groups were assigned differing altitudes, but the bombers of each box were spaced as I described and as Milo has shown (same graphics are in Freeman's book).

I see that you are working overtime to wiggle out of this, but there's no wiggle room here.

My regards,

Widewing

There were 3 three bomb groups in the 303rd Bomb Group..?

The 303rd BG was made up of:

358th BS
359th BS
360th BS
427th BS

Look at the number of bombers sent out in the reports you cut and pasted from Toad - 37, 36, 38, 43 etc...

At that time frame a bomber group consisted of 36 aircraft divided into 3 squadrons of 12 planes. Each squadron was then positioned High, Lead, Low to form the box..

The Reports referring to Group A and  Group B, aren't 'bomber groups' but reference the positions assigned to those squadron in the formation/box.

You are just plane wrong - yet again...

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Bruno
There were 3 three bomb groups in the 303rd Bomb Group..?

The 303rd BG was made up of:

358th BS
359th BS
360th BS
427th BS

Look at the number of bombers sent out in the reports you cut and pasted from Toad - 37, 36, 38, 43 etc...

At that time frame a bomber group consisted of 36 aircraft divided into 3 squadrons of 12 planes. Each squadron was then positioned High, Lead, Low to form the box..

The Reports referring to Group A and  Group B, aren't 'bomber groups' but reference the positions assigned to those squadron in the formation/box.

You are just plane wrong - yet again...

Listen, don't play dumb... Unless you're not playing...

My regards,

Widewing

[Bruno]

Did you happen to notice that one of the bomber groups involved was the 303rd?

I did and that's why I posted it.

The B-17s were at 25,000 feet

25,000 feet exactly - wow that must be accurate, eh?

FYI - 6500m is 21325ft - 24900ft is

the lowest was a lot higher than 6,500 meters

Yes there were higher bombers in the box - the LW in this instance attacked the lower group. They weren't dogfighting at 30k nor were the LW forced to climb to 30k to attack.

Notice the altitudes of the squadrons.... Not 1,000 yards apart, but just 700 feet from low squadron to high squadron.

I gave a range of 1000 to 3000ft - I can post other LW accounts that confirm that some BG were better at formation flying then others. I can post other accounts where a Groups didn't reach their assigned altitudes etc...

However, we all know this, right?

Oh, and yes, you could say that I have heard of Jeff Ethell. After Jeff died in the P-38 crash, Warren Bodie recruited me to fill his co-writing spot on a part-time basis. Warren and I shared several bylines before he found a full-time aviation writer to fill the position permanently.

I knew you were familiar with Mr. Ethell - that's another reason I posted it. Maybe you can help Neil out and locate the full article..?

Neil wrote:

I have no information on what journal this originally appeared in - and I'm unfortunately missing the end of the piece - you'll need to scroll across to read Page 3 - but you get the idea I'm sure

Gotta run - Staffel Practice - We actually were fighting at 8500m last night in Bf 109s - 3 kills no losses. We have another mission in this campaign tomorrow and need to spend the night going over a few things with the Nachwuchs. They tend to be a bit to anxious and get into and spots or lost in the contrails.

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Widewing
Listen, don't play dumb... Unless you're not playing...

My regards,

Widewing

You're the genius who can't comprehend what he is reading. How many groups are in the 303rd Bomb Group?

You wrote:

Note Group A, Group B, and Group C....

The altitude difference is between GROUPS, not SQUADRONS of a Group.

The stuff you pasted from Toad deals with one group - not three.

Those reports deal with the 303rd not anything else...

[MiloMorai]

Grouping A, Grouping B, Grouping C

[Wmaker]

I'm not a mind reader but I think this thread has drifted quite far from its original intent.

The problems in the coming TOD match up aren't really all about the altitude where the fights are going to be but with my AH experience I think it is still going to play a very significant role.

There are other problems like the fact that 109G-6's top speed with WEP at FTH is (at least very close last time I checked) the very famous 386mph (621km/h) figure. This figure was achieved with a captured nightfighter (Wilde Sau) G-6 which had ETC-rack and wingcannons. Clean 109G-6 with WEP should do around 401-404mph. Even then it obviously won't be catching P-47s at altitude but every bit helps.

And then there is the problem with 190s which can't get even close matching the turning of the P-47s:



This excerpt is from the USAAF tactical trials where capture 190 was flown against a P-47. AFAIK the variants here are FW-190G3 which roughly matches AH's 190A-5. And the P-47 was either a C or an early D roughly matching AH's D-11.

As it is said in the report. P-47 turns better at high speeds and the difference grows with altitude. That is true in AH aswell, but in AH it also turns better at lower speeds and alts (and with quite a margin) and has always done so. The further the situation is from the truth at low altitudes it is going to be even further as the altitude increases.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Bruno
You're the genius who can't comprehend what he is reading. How many groups are in the 303rd Bomb Group?

You wrote:



The stuff you pasted from Toad deals with one group - not three.

Those reports deal with the 303rd not anything else...

Don't you get dizzy going in circles?

You stated that a bomber box is stepped between 1,000 and 3,000 meters from high to low. That's in excess of 3,000 feet, closing in on 10,000 feet at your extreme of 3k meters.

We know that this is not the case.

I stated near the beginning of this thread that, "Typically, the B-17s flew between between 24k and 27k". This is exactly correct.

You used the German pilot's altitude estimate of 6,200 meters to prove that the bombers flew well below 25k. However, you overlooked the previous sentence that stated that the bombers were at 25k, which is seconded by the official record. This did not add to your argument.

Those are the facts...

Now, did some heavy bombers fly below 25k? Absolutely, especially B-24 groups. Being a handful to fly in tight formations at high altitudes, B-24s were generally assigned lower altitudes than the B-17s. However, I already stated that earlier in the thread. Typically, the B-24s were assigned 22k to 24k, but on shorter missions to France, sometimes they were assigned 20k to 22k. By spring of 1944, there wasn't very much fighter opposition over France and the escorts frequently numbered in the many hundreds. It is interesting to note that after March of 1944, the P-38s groups were assigned more coverage of B-24s than B-17s. This was simply due to the P-38s being more reliable below 25k, and consideration of their compression issues; greatly mitigated by flying lower.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Wmaker


As it is said in the report. P-47 turns better at high speeds and the difference grows with altitude. That is true in AH as well, but in AH it also turns better at lower speeds and alts (and with quite a margin) and has always done so. The further the situation is from the truth at low altitudes it is going to be even further as the altitude increases.

I agree. The 190s turn very poorly in Aces High. I just read a piece where the USAAF (8th AF Fighter Command) considered the 190s as more maneuverable than the 109s and a greater threat in maneuver combat.

Then there are the American pilot reports that seem to agree. Don Gentile found himself in a lufbery with a 190 on the deck. He was flying a P-47C-5. He could only just barely prevent the German from gaining lead angle. He was lucky to escape. However, in the game this will not happen. The P-47 will whip around the circle in a few turns and be all over the 190. Flaps help the 190 some, but if you try to get slow enough to get them down, you will get clobbered before ever getting that far.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bruno]

Don't you get dizzy going in circles?

You stated that a bomber box is stepped between 1,000 and 3,000 meters from high to low. That's in excess of 3,000 feet, closing in on 10,000 feet at your extreme of 3k meters.

No I didn't -

I said many posts back:

After I typed this:

1000 meters (actually 1000 to 3000)

Captain Virgil Hilts caught my error and I corrected it by replying:

The part is parenthesis was meant as feet - 1000m = 3281ft

I told you I gave a range... Your cut and paste of Toad's post confirms just what I wrote.

No where did I say 3000 meters.

I stated near the beginning of this thread that, "Typically, the B-17s flew between between 24k and 27k". This is exactly correct.

The premise of the thread as written by you:

High Altitude woes for the Luftwaffe

In preparation for CT, we have done extensive combat testing at altitudes between 25,000 and 30,000 feet. In short, the Focke Wulfs will be hard pressed to survive against the P-51s and P-47s, much less deal effectively with the bombers. The best handling 190, the A-5, can only manage 389 mph at 30k, 53 mph slower than the P-51B.

You want on to imply that the LW will be dogfighting at those altitudes and used:

Typically, the B-17s flew between between 24k and 27k

As some sort of 'historical rationale'

I said the LW were able to determine what areas of the formations they would hit - not only to avoid escorts but selected formations that provided the best target.

I said the bombers flew staggered, not just in staggered within a group (box) but the groups within the formation were staggered to confuse flak gunners. I said that bomber streams sometimes stretched 100s miles and arrived over the target areas at different altitudes and direct directions. I posted an account of the 7 July 1944 raid that confirms exactly that. You are wrong to claim that only RAF bombers did that.

You used the German pilot's altitude estimate of 6,200 meters to prove that the bombers flew well below 25k. However, you overlooked the previous sentence that stated that the bombers were at 25k, which is seconded by the official record. This did not add to your argument.

BS - I never typed 6200m was the altitude all bombers few at. I never even typed 6200m.

I quoted Dahl who's radio traffic with ground control shows he and JG 300 attacking bombers at 6500m. His got kills that day - you didn't. He account is certainly more credible then yours.

What I said about bombers is not all bombers flew at high altitude. I said that with largee formations and staggered Groups coming into to target at different directions and altitudes that the Luftwaffe wouldn't necessarily go after the high group and they certainly would not be dogfighting at 30k.

The 2 Luftwaffe main fighters had both their superchargers set for the altitude at which combat was most likely to take place. It wasn't at 30k. It is true that the LW desired to improve high altitude performance but this wasn't so they could 'dogfight' at 30k.

Despite the myths in this thread and the ones in the CT forums not all bombers flew at 'high altitudes'. Bomber boxes were stacked up high, mid, low and then the bomber streams were strung out sometimes over hundreds of miles. They came into target at staggered at heights and directions to confuse German FLAK gunners. Some really low, some much higher.

The LW had radar, they had ground observers. they had a command and control system that allowed the lesser defended areas of the bomber streams to be identified and attacked. Even very late in the war LW fighters were able to engage and destroy large numbers of bombers.

The quest by the LW to improve high altitude performance wasn't due solely on 'high altitude combat'. It was to get their smaller number of fighters up higher, or co-altitude, so that if engage by superior allied fighter strength they could 'get away' not 'fight to death' like we do in games like AH.

If Pyro or HT (or whoever) is developing the mission 'coad' doesn't recognize this then the CT will suck. However, from all indications they have made it clear that folks will need to stay in formation, fly their flight plan as written etc... Example - if your bomber group is sent into target at 21k you can't run off on your own to 30k etc...

So if you expect a lot of 'high altitude fighting' you maybe in for a shock to find the fights being more representative of real life combat rather then the myth of Ami super planes at 30k smacking down LW 'pigs'.

Even those high altitude fights will only remain at 'high altitude' if both combatants accommodate each other. All the high altitude 'training' you will need is to be able to dive and run to lower altitudes with out damaging your aircraft or giving up your 6.

You then went on cut and paste one of Toad's posts claiming 3 Groups made up the 303rd Bomb Group (the official Group A, Group B, Group C).

I also wrote:

In almost all those books there's almost no mention of combat above 8000m.

Most is between 5000 and 7000m. Some much lower.

This in reference to dogfighting

No where did I make a definitive claim about bomber altitudes.

You such a tool its not even funny - talk about wigglin'. However, it's not quite as bad as your lying when attributing made up statements and opinions to those who disagree with you...

One 'strawman' after another...

[1K3]

I tested Fw 190s @ 25-30K.  Trust me, you don't wanna pull more than 2g manuvers at less than 250 mph IAS or you'll stall.  Also, forget dogfighting USAAF fighters @ 25k with 190s

[Charge]

Or below....

"However, in the game this will not happen. The P-47 will whip around the circle in a few turns and be all over the 190. Flaps help the 190 some, but if you try to get slow enough to get them down, you will get clobbered before ever getting that far."

FW does fine in a furball by switching target all the time so you don't lose speed in trying to follow more maneuverable planes.

In MA having run into P51s, P47s or Tiffies with mediocre or above pilots I have lost 1 on 1s almost every time. (And yes it has crossed my mind that I just suck...)

-C+

[Kweassa]

In MA having run into P51s, P47s or Tiffies with mediocre or above pilots I have lost 1 on 1s almost every time. (And yes it has crossed my mind that I just suck...)

 That's OK, Charge.

 There's reason why Doom;

* flies at only friendly horde-dominated areas
* needs to be the only one at the Akakosphere
* uses everyone of his friendlies as only bait
* is the first one to leave the scene as soon as a co-alt bogey is spotted
* continuously taunts a lesser-skilled opponent on ch200, in hopes he may reup and become a target again

 
 For anyone who doesn't do that, it's a normal thing to happen.

[Viking]

Hey look what I found!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roKZ78I3xLw&NR=1


That'll cheer Bruno up a bit!