The What Went Wrong Thread

[Dichotomy]

In the past year I've been playing I've noticed that a lot of new guys come in and are anxious to learn how to pad their stats, game the game, fly with the hoarde, and generally worry more about their scores than actually learning how to drive a plane, tank, gv, etc, or whatever their hearts desire, around and effectively learn how to fight in a 1 v 1, 2 v 1, etc.  

Simply put the training corps are overwhelmed and it is my belief that constructive criticism is the way to learn.  Lets face it.. watching films of yourself is about as exciting as watching paint dry unless you've got someone with experience walking you through it.

For the next several days, weeks, or for however long it takes to help the newer members I will be posting films of my fights that I have lost.  I would encourage everyone to do the same once the critiques of the last flight / fight have died down.

Lets let the trainers and vets when they have the time to tell us what we could have done to survive the engagement and potentially prevail.  

A warning to all new and mid level players.  You are going to be critiqued harshly in some instances.

Listen to the vets.  If someone says something snide just go check their kill to death ratio.  If it's less than 1 ignore it.

I've been fortunate to fly with some of the best players in the game and I still suck.  Must have been all those brain cells I fried in my 20's and 30's but I still love this game and this community.  

Tonight I had the opportunity to fly against Tbarone in the AVA.  Naturally he killed me.  I had some chances and blew them.  Please read the comments and view the film and see if this in some way helps you make better decisions when you play.

Thanks to all of you seasoned vets who offer an honest critique that will open not only my mind but the minds of all of the newer players who take advantage of this offline training session.

So, without further preamble, I offer you my death at the hands of Tbarone tonight.


Tbarone Vs Dichodog

[clerick]

Good idea.  I find that the trainers are affective WHEN you can get the time.  It seems obvious that they are overloaded, but thats to be expected when there are a handful of them to service a few thousand people.

As long as the critique is honest, not overly-harsh and without malice i think that  posting video to the AH "community" is the next best thing to 1 on 1 training.

[Spatula]

Hi, did you want some comments on that particular fight? I got a couple if i may.

Firstly, your merge. You pulled right up in front of him. He was below you, you above (slightly) and he has ample speed (should have noted is slice-back reversal which would give him some nice speed). You dont wait to pass, instead you pull clean up while hes in front of you and below you. If the enemy goes up, he will pull clean onto your 6 - and he did. Watch it again from his perspective and you'll see what i mean. Frankly im suprised you survived further passed the 2nd merge at the top. The early turn (AKA lead-turn) only works if you are on the outside (or bottom in the vertical sense) and you actually cross paths.
From his perspective he dives to get under you, and is thinking great he let me under him now i can use that space to lead-turn him (you!) and then you go and make it easy for him by pulling up in front of him effectively giving him all the room he needs to chew into your angles.

From here you're on the back foot but the next two merges seal your fate. Merge 2 (at the top 1:30 into film) you hadnt got your nose round enough to take that shot. No flaps deployed at the top wont help you. Id pop a couple of notches to get the nose over faster, then you may have had a more truer HO shot opportunity - risky, however. Now you complete the pull out and have gathered 300MPH then go into a flat turn to set up merge #3. 300MPH is too fast to get around in time with a flat turn (actually your slightly diving compounding your problem). I would have made it more of a climbing turn like a pitch-back (say 45deg high) and popped a notch or two flaps. Essentially your going too fast to be able to turn around fast enough to take a shot. Doing something to slow your speed would have got you round faster and possibly presented you with another HO shot opportunity at merge #3 (1:45). Risky, again.

From here you've pretty much lost too much angles from the last 2 merges and unless he makes a mistake its going to be all over soon. And he does make a mistake! At about 1:46 or so he continues his nose-low tail-chase and is in real danger of overshooting. However you let him off the hook. At this point you are climbing for a second or two while he is going too fast and turns very wide. This is the perfect opportunity to enter a rolling scissors. At about 1:46 instead of just climbing i would have chopped back throttle popped 2-3 notches flaps and continued rolling around his path which could well have popped him out in front and you in command. He's a full 50MPH faster than you at this point and still nose-low. Instead, your straight climb up has again given him room to recover from his over-sped wide-turn and pop up on your extending 6. Game over.

Feel free to disagree or as for clarification. Its just the way i see it. Im sure others will add their bits. I realise i have the benefit of calmly watching it at slow speeds without G forces and adrenaline pumping tho.

[Dichotomy]

exactly what I'm looking for Spatula.  Thank you

[B@tfinkV]

what do you call a russian football player with 3 balls?
Whojanickabolockov
or a chinense footbal player with only one ball?
What Went-Wong

[humble]

This time i'm commenting as I watch...so its 1st impressions each time I pause.

1:17....

I've watched the 109 fly a classic merge...he's taken the under and established a bit of horizontal seperation. Once again (commenting on the other clip) your flying straight at him. The "premerge" goes along way in establishing initial angles....the "other guy" has done all he can to maximize his chances...BTW at 117 your looking UP...nothing but clouds...your view needs to be oriented either on the con or where U expect him to reaapear...

1:25 vis reaquirred....8 seconds is way to long...you never used any view other then your 12/6 line....

1:32...your views are bouncing all over and you flew thru a shot that should have killed you...your on life #2....this highlights managing views in air combat...

1:46...again your views are bouncing....nothing on the instrument panel thats moved...your reacting late to his changes in plane...again looks like a good FQ look from the other side (he hasnt fired as of yet)

2:22...I let it run a bit and you've been dead for about 10 seconds. Waiting to see corrections. The 109 has slowed the fight down, your carrying way to much E and had to either get off the gas and on the flaps/rudder or deny that choice and go vertical when he nosed over...

Take a look at relative speed at 2:22

Alot of this mirrors your earlier fight with bucky....these are both very good sticks. Your not flying badly....they are just flying better. Let me rummage thru a few clips I should have something that will show a bit of what I mean...

[Eagler]

listen to Spatula, he knows what he is talking about

[humble]

Yup, spatula and I (and most other "vets") are all seeing basically the same thing. From a broader perspective the 109 driver re oriented on you from oldmon. cleaned up reversed and flew the best merge he could with what he had. when you went vertical early he pulled back up into you to create a vertical (what I consider two circle) fight and then just took you angles....

This is an A20 vs 109 clip that ends up the same...its a good primer for "adjusting"...I know it platano and he knows its me. I try and set up the best fight I can and he counters it all nicely. At one point you have a plane view of the 109 and literally can see it twitch as he comes of the gas and pops full rudder....A20vs109

As counter point this is A20 vs a Ki-84 that doesnt really react well. He gives up a FQ shot and i'm actually behind him when he gets popped. While plane strength/weakness is a big issue ACM goes along long way.

A20vsKi


All i'm trying to show here is the concept of trying to fight "your" fight....sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. If you look back a bit I have a few other A-20 clips up that might help you as well with regard to out of plane manuevering and merge. The A20 vs 38 clip is probably pretty good for "out of plane" defense.

[Dichotomy]

nice dissections gentlemen..
Humble I'll watch that tonight.  I haven't upgraded AH here at the office so my film viewer is probably out of date.
batfink

[StuB]

Great thread!

I would like to add something, if I may....

New AH pilots are trying to learn how to apply the lessons that they have learned.  But, because they are inexperienced, they have to consciously think about what they are doing as they ntry to do it.  This is difficult to do.

They should all realize that the more mistakes they make in training the more they will learn and as they gain more experience they won't have to think about what they are doing so much.

[BaldEagl]

While I think many of us fly "instictually" after a while, myself included, I find that after 11 years I still have to think about things during a fight... flaps.. yes/no, throttle... up/down... reverse... how... where did he go?

These things are racing through your mind at speeds that allow for mistakes to be made and all it takes is one mistake to cost you the fight, especially against the better sticks.

I love to stall fight.  I mean truely stall fight... get the fight slowed down to the point that the stall buzzer is wailing in my ears the whole time but I have one consistant problem with this... I stall and auger pulling too hard for lead.  So this is something I know about and have to think about as my instincts haven't fully taken over on this one yet.  They are 90% accurate but I have to conciously be aware of that final 10% at all times.

So to the point of the post... what went wrong?... If my minds not in it I'm not going to win it.

[Dichotomy]

Okay gents,

Humble I watched the vids and get the point.  Now putting them into practice will be the challenge.  I'm flying the event in the AVA tonight so, if nobody else wants to put a critique film up, I should have one tonight or tomorrow.

[RTR]

heh, Dicho..you maybe oughta rethink the "if they have less than a 1.0 K/D disregard what they say" thing.

K/D really depends on a lot of things.  I have been around Aces High since 2001. Flew AW before that.  Admittedly, some reach a peak early and stay at a certain level.  I have however had the benefit of some great hardass teachers starting in AW in 1999.

So...haven't watched the film yet. but I will. Just saying.....I'm pretty comfortable in most rides now...what 8 years or so..... and occasionaly I have a KD below 1.0

Just depends on what is tickling my fancy that tour.

Am I a "vet'?   I dunno. Not even sure what defines a Vet.

You seem to be a pretty good person though Dicho, glad you came aboard. I think what you try to do here is admirable.

Okay..off to watch a film or two.

cheers,
RTR

[RTR]

okay..all in all Dicho...not a bad fight. TBarone is a handfull (past experience )

Pretty much can echo what Spatula and Humble iterated.

What I saw:  You were way to early on the merge. As you pulled up he was still way in front of you. This resulted in two things.

1.  When you pulled up early, you lost sight of him, and really had no idea where he was going to be 2 seconds later.

2. When you pulled up early Tbarone never lost sight of you.

Remember that old adage?  "Lose sight, lose fight".

Go back and watch the film. You were higher, faster and had way more 'E" in the bank at the start.  Tbarone just worked you down to his altitude and "E" level. Pony is a good plane, but remember it won't accelerate or climb like a 109.

Never give up any advantage you have. Make the lower A/C climb to you, make the faster A/C burn his (or her) "E".

Did you watch the film from Tbarones perspective? You can do this you know.
Just double click on his handle from the box on the right side of the film viewer.

All in all though..well fought Sir.

cheers,
RTR (newbie?...Vet?.....or just another lost soul without a real life?)

[Dichotomy]

RTR

Thanks.. I threw that less than 1 ktd for anybody that comes in here and starts denegrating someone or just being an arse for no good reason.  My entire point for throwing my shortcomings out there for the really good sticks to dissect and the rest of the player base to see are to

A) make me a better one and not take up a trainers valuable time
B) encourage newer players and some old ones to understand it's okay to fail and lose an engagement.  
and
C) try to bring at least some of the community focus back to making the game enviornment better

I don't denegrate anybody in game.  I'm not good enough to and even if I never died online I wouldn't.  I'd try to pass on what I know and help them improve much as many have done for me.  

I'd really appreciate it if someone would post a film tonight of them losing an engagement as I got no good films tonight.  (had a blast in the ava right up to the time I ate a farmers freshly planted crops).

Please keep in mind that this is not limited to the air war.  I'd like to see some people post films of GV's etc. for critique.


Edit:

Did you watch the film from Tbarones perspective? You can do this you know.

Just double click on his handle from the box on the right side of the film viewer.

yes and I saw what was pointed out... putting it into my instinct is going to be another thing

All in all though..well fought Sir.

cheers,
RTR (newbie?...Vet?.....or just another lost soul without a real life)

11 months in game.. slow learner