Uprising in Estonia

[mora]

Maybe Boroda and other Russians think that the riot police methods are the same as theirs... That would explain their view of the events.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by E25280
Could you expand a little bit for those of us ignorant on the subject . . . does Russia consider all ethnic Russians to still be Russian citizens?  Even if those of Russian decent were born in what is now an independent country?  Or just former "Soviet" citizens?

In Estonia they have about 1.5M people. Out of them 140,000 are "aliens", people with no citizenship, without voting rights and so on. About 100,000 are citizens of Russian Federation, with a local version of a "green card". A guy killed by polizei belonged to that kind.

Total number of the Russian-speaking population (Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Jews etc) there is anout 500,000, or one third of the population.

Originally posted by E25280
As for the second part, I perfectly understand that from your perspective the Soviet forces were "Liberators."  But since Estonia was temporarily an independent country after World War One, and were subjected to Soviet invasion and occupation in 1939, they apparently have a different perspective.

In 1940 Estonia was allowed to join the USSR with all possible democratic procedures. It's a fact. There was technically no "invasion". They chose their way themselves.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by mora
"Uprising"

 If the looting and vandalism would take place in Moscow you would be calling it terrorism.

Police stabbed the russian multiple times to death? I don't think it would happen even in Russia.

This guy was handcuffed to a lamp-post by polizeis, then he died OTW to the hospital.

I don't think I should post more pics of a dieing man here.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
And the russian was killed by another russian using knife. So how its Estonias fault?


I agree this thing could have been handled differently from the start. Now we have just to see it through.

Good. That's exactly what I meant asking for a media-coverage picture.

Thanks, guys.

[Stang]

Originally posted by Boroda
dealing with the remnants of the Liberators as with dogs.

Liberators?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Fishu
That's just great...  everyone who doesn't please the russians are nazis.

Estonians do have a pretty good grasp of what the nazism means, but they do also know even better what kind of butchers the commies were. Over 200 000 estonians were forced to move elsewhere and thousands were killed, while hundreds of thousands people were moved to Estonia from different parts of the Soviet Union.

Communist russia itself has caused the problem by using the ancient divide & conquer tactic. Estonians are now taking back the control of their own country and they have the right to remove the symbols of the former oppressors. The russian minority should integrate into the estonian society and stay reasonable.

200,000 Estonians forced to move elsewhere?!

My friend, there are still less then 1M Estonians there. 200,000 probably moved outside for better job/carreer opportunities. Remember how mane Poles and Finns got highest ranks in the Empire? Same thing about USSR. More to say, we had QUOTES for national minorities everywhere, leaving Russians the only opressed nationality in the Union. Look, I passed the Uni exams but the guys from Moldavia, Estonia and other republics didn't compete with me, they just got their places according to the quotes.

The total number of "purged" Estonians is less then 9000 IIRC, mostly people who collaborated with nazis and partisans.

Why don't you make 12% of Swedes "integrate" into Finnish society? They have their own language respected, and they don't have "alien" grey-coloured passports, or do they? Estonia = fascist country that openly praises nazis and builds monuments to SS Legion "warriors"...

[E25280]

Thanks for the explanations about the Russian citizen.  I think I get it.

Originally posted by Boroda
In 1940 Estonia was allowed to join the USSR with all possible democratic procedures. It's a fact. There was technically no "invasion". They chose their way themselves.

Thought you might be interested in how this "fact" is portrayed outside of Russia.

Following the Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939, the Soviet Army entered eastern Poland as well as military bases in the Baltic states which were granted after USSR had threatened the three countries with military invasion. In June 1940, the Red Army occupied the whole territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" USSR in August 1940 and were annexed into it as the Estonian SSR, the Latvian SSR, and the Lithuanian SSR.

From this, no, it doesn't sound like they chose their own way, rather had their way chosen for them.

"Facts" are unfortunately subject to bias depending on who is stating it.  This version of the "facts" was taken from a Wikipedia article (and therefore already subject to alternate interpretations), but pretty much follows everything I have ever heard/read about the occupation of the Baltic States.

Honestly not trying to fight with you, but this seems to be a good example of "history bias" just as the previous are examples of "media bias."  The version of history you were taught isn't what most others believe -- and clearly the Estonians do not believe it either.

[Suave]

Are the "russians" estonian citizens or russian citizens?

Didn't russian police just beat the **** out of scores of peacefull demonstrators in moscow and st petersburg a couple of weeks ago?

Remember russian military invaded estonia as recently as 1991.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by E25280
Thought you might be interested in how this "fact" is portrayed outside of Russia.

From this, no, it doesn't sound like they chose their own way, rather had their way chosen for them.

"Facts" are unfortunately subject to bias depending on who is stating it.  This version of the "facts" was taken from a Wikipedia article (and therefore already subject to alternate interpretations), but pretty much follows everything I have ever heard/read about the occupation of the Baltic States.

Honestly not trying to fight with you, but this seems to be a good example of "history bias" just as the previous are examples of "media bias."  The version of history you were taught isn't what most others believe -- and clearly the Estonians do not believe it either.

Well, Wikipedia as a source for "historical information" - don't make me laugh please. Pro-Soviet govts in Pribaltika were indeed democratically elected, and were much more legitimate then current puppets in Iraq or Afghanistan. In Iraq the death count is reaching 1million now, like the whole population of Estonia in 1940... Almost 10% of the whole population, compare it to the 0.1% of "purged" Estonians, including partisans.

I have stated my position many times: when I see two points of view on my country's history, both not contradicting common sence, one - Western, another Soviet - then I definetly choose a Soviet one. Just in case you don't know.

USSR had to get hold on Baltic "states" in 1940. It was obvious that if we don't seize them - then nazis will, and it's about 50km from Estonian border to Leningrad, that had 30% of USSR's industrial production. All the pre-war Soviet politics had one goal: to survive the upcoming War. Fortunately - we survived.

All we want is respect to out dead. Like this, it's the funeral for soldiers in Estonia, made by Russians:

http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/files/Otsing/(070428192021)_2.gif
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/files/Otsing/(070428192106)_5.gif
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/files/Otsing/(070428192214)_16.gif

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Boroda
Standard question: how does your media cover this events? I see drastic difference between Russian TV channels and Euronews.

Its been on the news alot here.

Estonians want to remove a memmorial to fallen russian soldiers. Some think its bad, some think its good so there is an uprising among the russian population (12%). That is the way its reported. News agencies dont have "opinions" here as they just report what is going on.

Personally i think the Estonians should not do it.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Suave
Are the "russians" estonian citizens or russian citizens?

Didn't russian police just beat the **** out of scores of peacefull demonstrators in moscow and st petersburg a couple of weeks ago?

Remember russian military invaded estonia as recently as 1991.

Russian military invaded Estonia in 1991? Then why are this nazi-lovers still there?

US military invaded Southern California in 1993!!! Aaaa!!!

Peacefull demonstrators were on the unsanctioned march and paralised the whole center of Moscow, a city where 10-15 million people live, like 10 Estonias. Imagine 2.5 thousand idiots blocking half of the NYC, and in Msk it's much worse - we have a radial-circular traffic system (circles were in fact fortress walls), so you can stop everything if you occupy a relatively small traffic hub in the center. In this case I am 100% on the Militia side - regardless to the political views of the protesters. I live here, it's MY city, and I don't want anything like this here.

I have already said that there are 140000 of "aliens", 100000 Russian citizens and 250-300000 Russians with Estonian citizenship in Estonia. 1/3 of the population. In Finland 12% of Swedes have their own language and are not opressed in civilian rights. Swedes occupied Finland for hundreeds of years, but - who cares?...

[Elfie]

I have stated my position many times: when I see two points of view on my country's history, both not contradicting common sence, one - Western, another Soviet - then I definetly choose a Soviet one. Just in case you don't know.

Sometimes our governments lie to us Boroda.....mine AND yours.....

[Boroda]

I corrected links to images in a post above, with Russian funeral in Estonia, and I need to say that  pictures were taken today, on April, 28th, while nazionalists demolish military graves and monuments...

[Sixpence]

Estonia is finally booting the oppressing symbols of it's past, good for them.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Elfie
Sometimes our governments lie to us Boroda.....mine AND yours.....

I discovered it many years ago, it's no surprise.

The problem is that here in USSR we had many Western sources availible, printed in millions of copies, why you guys seem to rely on TV mostly.