Author Topic: Stability with the Ki-84  (Read 2943 times)

Offline Krusty

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2007, 11:22:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sweet2th
All that turnin off & on makes for LOW SA.


Not really. Doesn't affect my SA at all. It's a button on my stick, under my thumb. I can hit it while still looking around with hat.

Also I don't have a fancy stick setup. If I did I'd map 3 axis to trim alone. Since I only have 4 axis total, I use combat trim (much faster than hitting and holding K and I and J and L and M and , .

Especially in the middle of a fight.

EDIT: That's just how I do it. I'm not saying you should do it that way, just explaining what I do.

Offline Sweet2th

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2007, 12:34:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty


EDIT: That's just how I do it. I'm not saying you should do it that way, just explaining what I do.



yea i kinda figured that.

Offline Kweassa

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2007, 03:25:37 AM »
Back to the subject:

 I'm not entirely sure what Karash is experiencing, but if it is what I think it is, then it's normal. The problem lies in the fact that the Ki-84 has a very low speed limit permitted for the first notch of flaps, and it will retract over 165 or 170mph IAS or something like that.

 Now, the Ki-84 is certainly a very agile plane, but frankly it is nothing special if the flaps aren't in use. As a matter of fact, there is a small speed margin of about 30mph, between about 170mph IAS to 200mph IAS, where the plane is extremely vulnerable to destabilization due to low speed and high AoA, but cannot use the flaps yet. Some veteran pilots say they don't notice that much of a problem, but for many people this speed range is a very dangerous point in which the Ki-84 is momentarily hindered in maneuvering - until finally the speed drops low enough to deploy the first notch of combat flaps.

 This is most noticeable when you are duelling a competitive pilot in perhaps a Spitfire or a N1K2.

 The Ki-84 with flaps out, is very vesatile, able to match the turning radius of the Spitfire or the N1K toe-to-toe with much more stable handling. As a matter of fact the Ki-84 turns better than the N1K2 and most Spitfires, barring the Spit5 and the Spit1 in pure radius. The problem is when the engagement starts out with some speed, in an attempt to enter tight-looping verticals with lots of rudder use, often leading to a rolling scissors situation.

 The enemy N1K2 or Spitfire, in defense, enters a very tight looping turn in the vertical and the Ki-84 pilot is often compelled to follow it. What happens is the Spitfire or the N1K2 goes tightly vertical, and then easily "snaps" downward using the gravity and momentum, entering a full circle pattern of flight.

 The Ki-84 tries to follow it, but when he has reached the apex of the tight loop his speed is still not low enough to deploy the flaps. Therefore, the Ki-84 is momentarily destabilized, and refuses any pitch input from the stick - which attempt if enforced, will cause roll axis destabilization that 'wallows' the plane. Therefore, the pilot has no choice but to leave the Ki-84 hovering for a very short time until the speed drops down 170mph IAS, and then he can pull the flaps out and immediately "snap" downwards to continue the loop.

 Unfortunately, that split-second of a delay is enough to lose some serious ground in the tight maneuvering contest, and by the time the Ki-84 has flaps out and starts moving downward, the Spit or the N1K is already climbing back up towards your tail.

 Also, even if you didn't lose enough ground to lose the fight outright, when you are coming down from the apex of the climb your speed rises again, and the flaps will retract. This often makes it impossible to keep the angle necessary to stay behind the Spitfire or the N1K, as the Spit/N1K will start going up in another loop, but your Ki-84 cannot pull enough pitch angle to stay in an advantageous position. This is perhaps the one weakness which pilots can fully exploit to defeat the Ki-84 in a similarly maneuvering plane.

 ...
 
 My advice is, if you will go into an engagement against a Spitfire or a N1K, then commit yourself only when the speed is sufficiently low. If you are chasing a Spitfire or a N1K that is running away at - let's say - about 350mph TAS, then this might bring out the situation as described above, where the Spit/N1K will enter a tight maneuvering evasive, but the Ki-84 cannot follow it directly due to flaps not being able to deploy yet.

 In this case, use your E and 'corner' the enemy some more, until he starts resorting to very tight turns and low speeds. Once you are confident that the ensuing maneuvering contest will rarely put your speed above 200mph IAS, then commit yourself, dump all unnecessary speed, and let those flaps rock the world. Once you are in the 'flaps' domain, nothing short of the Hurricane or a Zero can defeat you in it. Just becareful of those 'similar' looking situations which puts you in and out of that domain.

Offline SuperDud

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2007, 06:57:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sweet2th
It makes the difference if time is taken to learn and adapt it.Pulling way back on the joystick usually leads to blacking out and loss of SA as well as loss of energy.IMHO anyone who says it won't help you is just telling you that so you don't use like they are!




Quote
Originally posted by hitech
The only time trim would help your turn rate is if your stick is already full back, and you still need more elevator. This would only be the case at higher speeds in some planes where you can not exert enof stick force.


So in a slug it out, low speed dogfight, you gain no advantage.... unless Hitech is wrong?:noid
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Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2007, 07:01:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
So in a slug it out, low speed dogfight, you gain no advantage.... unless Hitech is wrong?:noid



That may be how things werk in his world or in your world for that matter, but that's not how they werk in mine.

Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2007, 09:48:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Also, even if you didn't lose enough ground to lose the fight outright, when you are coming down from the apex of the climb your speed rises again, and the flaps will retract. This often makes it impossible to keep the angle necessary to stay behind the Spitfire or the N1K, as the Spit/N1K will start going up in another loop, but your Ki-84 cannot pull enough pitch angle to stay in an advantageous position. This is perhaps the one weakness which pilots can fully exploit to defeat the Ki-84 in a similarly maneuvering plane.


I'm not an expert Ki-84 pilot by any means but I drop throttle on the way down with flaps deployed, raising flaps and throttling back to full at the bottom for the ride up, then deploy flaps again at the top to bring me over.

This developed as a reaction to the Ki-84's propensity to compress.  When I first started flying it I got used to dropping throttle in any sort of dive.  When I realized how much better a plane it was with flaps I added them, but never got rid of the reduced dive throttle.

It keeps you pretty busy flying a Ki-84 but it's part of what makes flying one so fun.
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Offline dedalos

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2007, 01:25:03 PM »
1) Dont play with your trim
2) Leave combat trim alone unless you are doing 50mph at the top of a look
3) #1 and #2 are useless at 250mph (one more reson to leave them alone)
4) You are using the Ki the worst possible way.  250mph is the worst speed for that bird.  Be fast or be slow 150mph or less so flaps can come out.
5) Dont turn until flaps are out.  Use the vertical.  Thats what it can do best.

Best thing to do in the Ki, use the vert to slow down your oponent.  Once speeds drop below 200 and preferable around 150 the Ki will pwn any plane.
And no, I have not experienced what you see so maybe you are just pulling to mach for that bird?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Kweassa

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2007, 02:12:49 AM »
Quote
I'm not an expert Ki-84 pilot by any means but I drop throttle on the way down with flaps deployed, raising flaps and throttling back to full at the bottom for the ride up, then deploy flaps again at the top to bring me over.

This developed as a reaction to the Ki-84's propensity to compress. When I first started flying it I got used to dropping throttle in any sort of dive. When I realized how much better a plane it was with flaps I added them, but never got rid of the reduced dive throttle.

It keeps you pretty busy flying a Ki-84 but it's part of what makes flying one so fun.


 Neither am I. But being mediocre at best does have its advantages, since I can offer viewpoints more close to the everyday troubles of average pilots, rather than the "l33T" guys who has no problems in whatever they fly.

 I've actually came up with a theory concerning the Ki-84 in the past, that describes why some veterans do not seem to realize the afore mentioned problems I've wrote down.

 My theory is that it has to do with the basic judgement in speeds and situations. Experienced veterans have a very accurate sense of judging the conditions of the fight, and are talented enough to immediately force an action when they see the opportunity is right, without hesitation. However, the average pilots are not as quick in judgement, and needs a lot of assurance before committing himself to a duel. The Ki-84 is a very excellent maneuvering plane, but at the same time boasts quite decent speeds as an E fighter as well. Its top speed down at deck is 344mph, which is on par with the P-38L.

 Now, what happens is, when the veterans engage in a knife-fight against Spits or N1Ks or such, they do not hesitate to dump all unnecessary speed and immediately enter the realm of flap fluttering contests. They bypass the critical "danger margin" between 170~200mph and immediately force the enemy Spit or N1K into ultra-low speed fights that range between 90~150mph.

 However, average pilots can't do that. There is always a certain temptation to conserve some amount of E, and this is because they aren't confident enough to believe they can defeat anything the enemy Spit or N1K2 throws at him. Therefore, they will often hesiatate, and will enter the fight in a more conserving manner. The end-result is that they have to fight through that 170~200mph "danger zone" in the Ki-84.


 In this case, it's not surprising why the better pilots do not notice this problem exists, whereas more average guys like me or Karash definately notice a handling problem before the Ki can deploy flaps.

Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2007, 02:49:04 AM »
Interesting observation Kweassa and probably very close to the truth.
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Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2007, 06:49:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sweet2th
That may be how things werk in his world or in your world for that matter, but that's not how they werk in mine.
If you're flying Aces High you're in HTCs world.
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Offline Widewing

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2007, 11:00:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Once you are in the 'flaps' domain, nothing short of the Hurricane or a Zero can defeat you in it. Just becareful of those 'similar' looking situations which puts you in and out of that domain.


Have you actually done any dueling in the Ki-84 lately?

Add to your list the following: Spit5, Spit8, Spit9, N1K2-J, Bf 109F-4, Bf 109E and any F4U.

Other aircraft that turn tighter (much tighter) than the Ki-84, but are inferior in power are the FM-2, SBD and TBM. The secret to these three is not to fly them too far into a stall. You must understand that the smallest circle is not usually the fastest way around a circle. Moreover, pushing too far into stall shake usually increases turn radius while decreasing turn rate.

You will find me in the LWAs flying TBMs, SBDs and Bostons as fighters. There's nothing more entertaining than watching some over-confident pilot head your way, eager for the easy kill, only to be fluttering to the ground within 60 seconds.

I like the Ki-84. It's an excellent fighter within the realm it's happy in. It is not a superfighter by any stretch. Meet an equally skilled pilot in a better plane (and there are plenty that are better) and it is in trouble. Meet a better pilot in an inferior plane and it's still in trouble.

I know you believe the machine is the most important factor. It is important, but it's not as important as skills and talent. Machines don't make decisions. Machines don't formulate tactics. Machines are tools and a lousy craftsman with the best tools still can't build anything worth a damn.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Max

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2007, 11:49:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing


I know you believe the machine is the most important factor. It is important, but it's not as important as skills and talent. Machines don't make decisions. Machines don't formulate tactics. Machines are tools and a lousy craftsman with the best tools still can't build anything worth a damn.


Widewing


Now THAT is sig material :aok

Offline Karnak

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Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2007, 01:24:23 PM »
I agree with Widewing's list of fighters that turn tighter, though it is very close between some of them.

What I have found though is that the Ki-84 can simply out power most of them in the vertical.  The engines in the Spit v, Bf109E and F and in things like the SBD and TBM simply cannot match the engine in the Ki-84 and it allows the Ki-84 to dictate the fight if flown intelligently.

The pilot is the major factor.
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Offline Sweet2th

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« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2007, 05:43:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
If you're flying Aces High you're in HTCs world.


That doesn't mean things goes exactly as he says.

Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2007, 07:52:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sweet2th
That doesn't mean things goes exactly as he says.
:huh
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