Author Topic: p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...  (Read 844 times)

Offline Sincraft

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« on: May 02, 2007, 08:17:35 PM »
I've been pondering some thoughts I've had in the past couple months since joining this game, and wondering two things:
1. at dead six - people seem to have a pretty seriously hard time killing aircraft even with concentrated ammo loads into their arse, planes without cannons that is.  All reports and documents seem to warrant that this was the deadly position to get yourself into in a battle. Yet, in this game...and bunch of 'funky chicken' defense twists or even just a blatant disregard for the R/L dangers of flying straight and plain with an aircraft dead six at 400m is disregarded.  Just wondering what other peoples thoughts were on this.  

2. There seems to be an issue with bleeding energy by dumping the throttle in this game vs R/L also.  There is a 200mph barrier that doesn't seem to go below, it sits on that needle and nothing short of a serious turn or series of rudder twists deny the plane of the energy it should not have with a throttle dump flying level close to sea level.  Most of the planes I speak of include the Spit,109s, p51s, f6f and f4u variants.
So the other day I am flying in a spit and attempting to dump my throttle and flip my flaps.  There seems to be an issue whereas you can not dump your flaps down until a rather low speed.  Although possibly historically correct, refer to my previous statement about bleeding E as it seems to be a bit 'weird.

So I was flying in a p38l with 25% fuel and no rockets the other day, flying against a spit (variant unknown) and watched as a level spit was catching up with a level p38l without much problem.  1500m went to 1000m  1000 went to 800, until finally he was 400 away and I had to try to engage to save myself.

Afterwards, I type in some information and found this document.  Comments?

-------------
An excerpt from "Top-Guns" By Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan... this account of mock-combat shared by Colonel John Lowell, highest scoring P-38 ace/European Theatre:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Our Group recieved several P-38Ls just before the P-51s arrived. This latest "Lightning" had dive-flaps under the wings, improved power and a gun camera located away from the nose. On a day we were 'stood down" (no missions), General Eisenhower arranged for one of the top English aces, Wing Commander Donaldson, to come to Honington and show us slides of English Spitfires that had been equipped with external tanks like U.S. fighters. Those tanks allowed Spitfires to penetrate deep into Germany. Most of the U.S. pilots didn't know about the Spit's long-range, and some Spitfires had been fired upon before American pilots realized that their insignia was the Royal Air Force circle and not a German Swastika. ME-109s, P-51s and Spitfires were not easily distinguishable from one another until close enough to "make combat."

All 364th Fighter Group pilots attended Donaldson's slide picture presentation in our briefing room. When he had finished, he described the new Spitfire XV he had flown to our base. It had a five-bladed prop, a bigger engine, and improved firepower. Then he said, "If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I'll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this SpitXV can whip your best pilot's ass."

The entire group started clapping and hollared, "Big John! Big John!"
That was me, so I asked him, "what is your fuel load?"
He replied, "Half petrol."
"What is your ammo load?"
He said, "No ammo."

We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took-off in a new P-38L, after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter-balance, dropped the external tanks, and sucked out half the internal fuel. I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet I would be close to 600mph.

When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight-up while watching him try to get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally, he turned into a full-power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my "Clover-Leaf", and if we'd had "hot guns", he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split S'ed from about 1000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.

The men of the 364th were watching the fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several of them told me later that they thought I would crash. But they were wrong. All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again. He was apparently surprised. He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base. I was most pleased with the reception I got upon landing."

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6128
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2007, 08:55:09 PM »
Do a search on John Lowell on this board. This subject has been beaten to death.

Lowell was an excellent pilot who dearly loved the P-38. But even he admits he cheated somewhat by diving to the called altitude. Lowell, by many reports, had a habit of stretching the truth at times. And by most accounts, he likely was not the top scoring P-38 pilot in Europe, certainly not be confirmed air to air claims.

Suffice to say that SOMETHING very similar to this event DID happen. But not EXACTLY as described. Lowell "added some frills and dressings" to a real event. Often, the plain facts are outstanding by themselves, and anything added tends to detract from them. That is likely the case here. Lowell was a great pilot, with a great deal of skill, who flew some wild and woolly missions, what he really did was certainly larger than life to begin with.

Most often, when you have a plane close on you when you think it shouldn't, it's because you misjudged his speed at least, and probably his E state. It is VERY difficult to accurately and correctly judge the E state and speed of your opponent all the time, due to all sorts of variables introduced by computers and internet connections, especially if you are not gifted or very experienced, and do not fly all the time.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 08:59:30 PM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2007, 09:32:48 PM »
Also, no such animal as a Spitfire Mk XV.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2007, 10:53:41 PM »
No, but there was a Seafire XV which was the naval version of the Spitfire VII.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 11:39:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No, but there was a Seafire XV which was the naval version of the Spitfire VII.


ack-ack


No no.

Was Navalised Griffon Spit XII (basically).

The VII was a high alt Merlin 70/71 version, pointy wings. pressurised cockpit,  and all that stuff.
Most had pointy tips removed by D-Day and had reverted to standard tips.



Main diff between VI and VII -
Poor pilot got into the cockpit and then had the canopy bolted on around him on the VI, EEEK
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 11:47:28 PM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2007, 11:48:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No, but there was a Seafire XV which was the naval version of the Spitfire VII.


ack-ack

Which never would have been involved in that incident for multiple reasons.

And as Kev points out, it wasn't a Merlin Spit at all, and in fact was effectively post war.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 12:06:13 AM »
Seafire XV first in service May 1945, but never seen any operatiol service.

So how this guy could be mock dog-fighting with one in 1944 (I guess) is beyond .me.

Seafire XV was a bit of frankenstein -
Wing - Seafire III (folding 'c' wing)
Fuse - Spit V (but basically all post 1942 Spits can claim that)
Engine, cowling, prop = Spit XII
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 12:10:42 AM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
Re: p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 01:48:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sincraft
"If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I'll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this SpitXV can whip your best pilot's ass."


That is enough evidence i need to believe that it is a BS story.

A make believe Spitfire.

Stereotypical British comments at the beginning, followed by stereotypical American comments at the end.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Knegel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 620
Re: p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 07:04:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sincraft
I've been pondering some thoughts I've had in the past couple months since joining this game, and wondering two things:
1. at dead six - people seem to have a pretty seriously hard time killing aircraft even with concentrated ammo loads into their arse, planes without cannons that is.  All reports and documents seem to warrant that this was the deadly position to get yourself into in a battle. Yet, in this game...and bunch of 'funky chicken' defense twists or even just a blatant disregard for the R/L dangers of flying straight and plain with an aircraft dead six at 400m is disregarded.  Just wondering what other peoples thoughts were on this.  

2. There seems to be an issue with bleeding energy by dumping the throttle in this game vs R/L also.  There is a 200mph barrier that doesn't seem to go below, it sits on that needle and nothing short of a serious turn or series of rudder twists deny the plane of the energy it should not have with a throttle dump flying level close to sea level.  Most of the planes I speak of include the Spit,109s, p51s, f6f and f4u variants.
So the other day I am flying in a spit and attempting to dump my throttle and flip my flaps.  There seems to be an issue whereas you can not dump your flaps down until a rather low speed.  Although possibly historically correct, refer to my previous statement about bleeding E as it seems to be a bit 'weird.

So I was flying in a p38l with 25% fuel and no rockets the other day, flying against a spit (variant unknown) and watched as a level spit was catching up with a level p38l without much problem.  1500m went to 1000m  1000 went to 800, until finally he was 400 away and I had to try to engage to save myself.



Hi,

1. You should adjust your sticksetting.
Every plane show the most smal target from strait 6oc and 12oc, therefor in RL the 5 and 7 oc position was the most effective nd so preferred attacking position, so it is in AH.

In AH the stick setup is very important, many new players have real problems to aim exact and even old hands get problems after some beer.
The AH flight model dont forgives dirty potis, which cause smal peaks. Such a stick make aiming VERY difficult. I clean my potis all 3 month to prevent this.

2. The drag increase in square with the speed, while the propeller thrust decrease with the speed, thats why the E-bleed is much higher at higher speeds. If you have even a smooth downward movement, the thrust due to the weight is enough to keep the plane at around 200mph.  Raise the nose a bit and you will very fast get below 200mph(no power).
The flaps are strange anyway in AH and in low level the P38 isnt that fast, its nothing special that a Sp16 or Sp14 are faster, specialy if they had a initial speed advantage. If the P38 have a intially greater speed, it also is faster for a very long time, no matter if it is slower after the swing is gone.
At highspeed the propeller thrust isnt that high anymore, while inertia turn to be a major factor.

The story dont say much, its not suprising that the P38 outzoom the Spitfire(no matter what mark), if it start the upzoom with a much greater speed. As result, of course, the P38 will end on the Spits tail.
What i find VERY strange is the Spit using its flaps, while the Spit dont had combat flaps and a down swing at 1000ft(330m) is pretty dangerus anyway, i cant believe they made such dangerus manouvers just for fun.



Greetings,

Knegel

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Re: p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 07:42:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
That is enough evidence i need to believe that it is a BS story.

A make believe Spitfire.


I don't see why this cannot be a memory lapse.  After all, why would an American pilot who never flew Spitfires remember the exact model of a Spitfire he encountered once?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6128
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 07:51:59 AM »
The incident DID occur. Lowell WAS the P-38 pilot involved. It DID involve a P-38L-5-Lo. And a mid 1944 new top line Spitfire. The identity of the Spitfire pilot is not known for sure, only that he was a top rated combat pilot, as there were several sent out to give other groups a close up look. There is no doubt however that the "trash talk" was surely embellished to a fairly great degree. Like other events of that nature, some of the truth surrounding the event has been eclipsed by exaggeration.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 09:03:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Do a search on John Lowell on this board. This subject has been beaten to death.

Lowell was an excellent pilot who dearly loved the P-38. But even he admits he cheated somewhat by diving to the called altitude. Lowell, by many reports, had a habit of stretching the truth at times. And by most accounts, he likely was not the top scoring P-38 pilot in Europe, certainly not be confirmed air to air claims.


If the spit was a XIV and level at MIL her speed would have been about 375mph ... compare to the 600mph of Lowell ,the game was set.
Even a dweeb like me would have won with such an E advantage !

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6128
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2007, 09:17:12 AM »
We know full well that Lowell was NOT going 600MPH. A problem with the pitot tubes and their placement lead to errors. Lowell may have seen 600MPH on his air speed indicator, Hell, he may have even believed it (not likely, as Lowell flew some of the stateside test program at some point), but he wasn't going even close to that fast. See my earlier comments on embellishment.

A P-38J-20-Lo (or later) can reach around .72-.75 Mach in near sea level air and maintain reasonable control. That ain't even close to 600MPH.

I'd be willing to bet the Spitfire pilot wasn't exactly flying along level either. It was not at all uncommon for participants in prearranged mock combat to seek to take every advantage by any means they thought they could get by with. Pride is a huge factor among pilots, especially fighter pilots.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2007, 04:59:30 PM »
How very convenient.

 The guy lies about the plane type, the when and where, the pilot name, and for some reason at that moment his pitot is screwed up and makes up an imaginary E advantage...
 
 ...and yet, it's not a made up story, it did happen, Lowell didn't need a huge E-adv, and he still beat a clandestine "top fighter pilot" in an unnamed "Spitfire" in a story which no one else than himself can verify.

 
 ...

 
 It's not hard to imagine if someone might have switched around the ethnicity of the above planes in (for instance) a Luftwaffe fairy-tale or something, the faith in the authenticity of such events might have rapidly diminished. Especially considering the fact that the guy is known to have made up another story concerning a certain mustached German General of Fighter Pilots in a certain long-nosed 190, in an event which couldn't have happened in the first place.

 Where did the "take it with a grain of salt when it comes to anecdotes" reasoning go? Down the drain, as soon as one's favorite plane gets involved.

 Kind of makes you wonder, that if the RAF Spitfire was perhaps a favorite "tall-tale adversary" subject for American pilots to talk about during their stay in the ETO - some guy wants to show off his style, and he goes around telling stories of how he squashed them proud Brit pilots in their pride Spitfire..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 05:04:04 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
p38L vs spit xv somewhat incorrect...
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2007, 05:36:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Which never would have been involved in that incident for multiple reasons.

And as Kev points out, it wasn't a Merlin Spit at all, and in fact was effectively post war.


oh, sorry I wasn't trying to imply that the "duel" was against the Seafire XV.  


And thanks Kev for the clarification.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song