Author Topic: Advice on my first long gun purchase  (Read 1695 times)

Offline Ghosth

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Advice on my first long gun purchase
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2007, 08:51:08 AM »
270 is perhaps one of the best all around rounds you can find. Flat shooting and fast, its easier on the shoulder than the 308 or 06. Capable of dropping anything from a deer up to a moose. Common with a wide variety of ammo available for it, at reasonable prices. It shoots almost as flat as the .243 with much better penetration and double the energy downrange.


I had a .243 and loved it, was fantastic for vermin & varmints, and antelope. Loved dusting crows at 300-400 yards with it. But its a bit light for a good deer rifle and outclassed for anything bigger.  

Good military rifles in 30-06 or .308 nato are also excellent all around performers.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2007, 09:20:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xargos
Virgil, do you limit the amount of rounds you fire within a 15 min period of time to keep the barrel from getting too hot?  I have heard of some competition shooters doing that to extend the life of their rifles

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm



That above site really wasn't the info I was looking for, but it's close.

I've owned two 300 Winchester Magnums, one ended up getting a warped barrel the other I ended up having to sell because of medical bills.  I spoke to some hunting friends and three of them had had similar problems with warping, while the rest said they had not seen any evidence of that happening.  I have seen people make some amazing hunting shots with a 300 Winchester Magnum.

Allot of people I know swear by the .270, though I never seemed to have much luck with them, but then again I never really spent much time with one.



The 300 Winchester is a fairly large over bore, but not like my old 220 Swift. The 220 Swift is pretty easy to shoot the barrel out of. I do not consciously limit my number of rounds per minute, I suppose it is sort of automatic, since when I'm out shooting it, I'm working on accuracy most often. I honestly do shoot near max loads, that's what my rifles have preferred for accuracy. I'm pushing a 168 grain Sierra Match King at around 3300 FPS.

It isn't warpage that happens, well, not that I'm aware of. At least not that I've seen. What happens is the throat gets eroded. The large amount of powder tends to heat the barrel to a greater degree, and if you shoot until you overheat the barrel, the next shots will begin to torch away small bits of metal (almost microscopic). That makes the throat rougher, and drives pressure up, making the over heating problem worse. As you erode the throat, the pressure curve becomes very inconsistent, and the friction changes from shot to shot. It causes the shot groups to enlarge. I suppose if you could get the barrel hot enough, it'd warp under its own weight. Or possibly if you got it pretty hot, and then stood it up somewhere leaning it against an object supported by the barrel it might warp. The thing is, the rifle would lose a lot of accuracy before you got the barrel that hot.
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Offline Xargos

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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2007, 11:08:46 AM »
Thank you Capt.  I'm trying to remember if I've ever leaned mine hot, that seems very probable and I won't do that again.

I really liked the 300 Winchester Magnum, but was turned off by the increasing changes in accuracy.  Now I'm thinking about getting another one since you seemed to have explained so many thing that may have happened.  I'm older now and tend to take better care of my things.

P.S.  Capt.  Could the type of powder you use in your reloads have an effect on barrel life?  What type of powder do you use in your 300 Winchester Mag rounds and how much?  Do you know how many C.U.P.s it produces?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 12:51:34 PM by Xargos »
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Offline Halo

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Advice on my first long gun purchase
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2007, 11:09:46 AM »
From what I've read and seen again on this thread, the .270 is a great hunting caliber.  Also hear consistent praise for .308, 30-06 and 30-30 too.

Since I don't hunt, and just plink or shoot paper at short ranges, my favorite long gun is an M1 .30-caliber Carbine replica by Auto-Ordnance/Kahr.  I really liked the M1 Carbine the first time I shot it many years ago in the Air Force, and have never found a long gun that just plain feels as good to handle and shoot.

Hunters reportedly consider the M1 Carbine a minimum for deer and fun for varmints.  Its most effective range is said to be around 200 yards and under, but 100 and under would be even better.  Its light weight (under six pounds) and exceptionally good iron sights make it effective in brush and heavy cover, and its wood stock and overall feel make it more like a companion than a tool.

New 5-round mags are available for hunting and make the M1 even sleeker and easier to handle.  However, the M1 Carbine's wonderfully satisfying loud bolt click, useful in home defense mode, surely would spook any game not wearing earmuffs.

Could always chamber a round and put the safety on, of course, which I suppose is the way hunters do it when they get on the shooting ground.  

Anyway, with all the excellent long gun perspective in this thread, didn't want you to overlook the M1 Carbine as a dark horse possibility or a just a fun gun anytime in the future.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 11:39:01 AM by Halo »
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2007, 11:21:52 AM »
Quote
my favorite long gun is an M1 .30-caliber Carbine replica by Auto-Ordnance/Kahr.


I just ordered a late features service grade Inland from CMP for $495. Part of a return of carbines loaned to Italy after WW2. Since they had 4000 orders arrive on the first day of the offer it might be some time before it gets processed and shipped. It will go well with my early features Inland.

As noted, a carbine is a bit marginal for clean kills at beyond 50-75 yards with deer sized game. However, for plinking (somewhat higher relative ammo costs aside) it's excellent and for home defense use it puts out the same energy a .357 generates at the muzzle at 100 yards. Also a great firearm for women and children to use moving up from a .22.

And, it doesn't look as evil as an AR or AK series, which, unfortunatly, is a ban consideration in the Peoples' Republic of Illinois. Not an over use of the cliche since we are, in both the 2nd and with new unfunded social welfare initiatives, giving California and Mass. a run for their money as most liberal state in the country.

Charon
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 11:49:33 AM by Charon »

Offline rogwar

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Advice on my first long gun purchase
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2007, 02:30:09 PM »
270 or 30-06. 30-06 has a lot of cartidges available and you can hunt about anything in North America.

Savage makes a nice bolt action at a reasonable price. Get a good recoil pad like a Limbsaver. Get a good quality scope.

No need to go exotic with calibers and such.

Vented/ported barrels are nice but so darn loud. Hate shooting next to someone that has one.

30-30 has a new awakening with the LeverEvolution ammo. I pulled my old Marlin 336 out of mothball that's 30 years old (xmas present) and have started shooting/hunting with it again. That ammo is impressive.

Offline eagl

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« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2007, 05:45:35 PM »
Buy 2 guns since you mention only "occasional" deer hunting.  This is what I did.  Get a little .22 or a nice .223 for practice on the range (I got both, a ruger 10-22 and mini-14) and then get a decent hunting rifle in a larger caliber for hunting.  The savings in cost of practice ammuntion by doing most of your shooting with .22 or .223 ammo will pay for the cost of the second gun after a few years.

For me, it's pretty easy math...

7mm rem mag:  $1.50 - $3 per round
.22:  $15 per box of 500
.223:  $5 for box of 20

You can get .22 and .223 ammo even cheaper in some places, but I'm personally wary of buying reloads from some guy at the local gun show, and I've never wanted/needed to buy enough ammo at once to get the bulk discounts.  Even buying ammo at wal-mart, the savings in just the first 500-1000 rounds will be enough to pay for the second gun.

For a specific recommendation for a nice hunting cartridge, I really like the 7mm remmington magnum.  It shoots very flat and it's a flexible enough round to take anything from deer to moose depending on what bullet weight you select.  It was the best one-size-fits-all gun I could find at the time.  I got a browning a-bolt with the BOSS anti-recoil and barrel tuning dingus, and it really helps tame the recoil (it has a much lower felt recoil than my brother's 30-06) but it was not inexpensive.  Still, I sighted it in at 200 yards using heavy game ammo and I'm confident that I can hold just a touch high of center on any game from point blank out to 400 yards, and get a lethal hit plus-minus a few inches of my aimpoint without having to correct for range and bullet rise/drop.

Regarding criticisms of the barrel tuning and anti-recoil devices, maybe I just had good luck but I chopped my group size at 200 yards in half in just one day at the range when going from straight out of the box to using recommended BOSS settings for the bullet weight I was shooting.  There is no black blast worth noting and it really does reduce felt recoil as long as you are holding the gun nice and snugly because the recoil impulse is stretched out over a longer period of time.  If you give it a running start at your shoulder, yea it'll hurt, but if held properly it feels like it has about 1/3 the recoil as my brother's 30.06.  It didn't seem to have a noticeably greater amount of noise or blast.  It's probably not worth it for a casual shooter but if you go for a beefier or magnum round, I'd consider at least one of the anti-recoil devices.  If possible, try shooting your cartridge of choice both with and without an anti-recoil device (or porting) and decide which one you like better.

If you get a second gun for practice though, having an anti-recoil system matters less and less because you'll only shoot it at the range to sight it in and for basic familiarization/proficiency, while you keep your generic shooting skills up to speed using something cheaper to shoot.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 06:01:01 PM by eagl »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2007, 06:47:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xargos
Thank you Capt.  I'm trying to remember if I've ever leaned mine hot, that seems very probable and I won't do that again.

I really liked the 300 Winchester Magnum, but was turned off by the increasing changes in accuracy.  Now I'm thinking about getting another one since you seemed to have explained so many thing that may have happened.  I'm older now and tend to take better care of my things.

P.S.  Capt.  Could the type of powder you use in your reloads have an effect on barrel life?  What type of powder do you use in your 300 Winchester Mag rounds and how much?  Do you know how many C.U.P.s it produces?


It is possible that the wrong type of powder could cause erosion issues and other problems.

I've been using IMR 4350 powder for years. IMR was recently purchased by Hogdon. I've begun to do some experimenting with slightly different powders. I used to use 4350 because it worked well in all of my rifles, and those of my friends and family. For the same reason I used WW 296 for my handgun loads, because it worked in all of our large caliber handguns. These days there may be around a 1/2 dozen different powders in my cabinet.

The amount of powder needed varies greatly. Barrel length, chamber depth, overall cartridge length, and the condition of the barrel can all change the pressure and as such the amount of powder. As my load is a near max load from an OLD manual (I've been shooting the same load for decades) I don't tell people exactly what it is, for liability reasons among others. I'm sure my pressure is at or near the top, and in a different rifle could be a proof load levels.

Get yourself a couple of good reloading manuals and work up your loads according to their instructions. Hogdon has a good manual, as does Sierra. What you find is that for example a Sierra manual will only have data for their bullets, and until this year a Hogdon manual only had data for their powders. This year, Hogdon started listing powders that they test and distribute, however the new manual has fewer cartridges in it. I don't have a copy of the new one, mine is a few years old. But you need to get at least a couple of manuals, and read them thoroughly and carefully. Learn all of the signs of excessive pressure, and of other problems. Then carefully work up your loads, remembering that you may reach excessive pressure before you get to their max load, or maybe not until after. Barrels are like people, no two are exactly alike, so no two exhibit the same attributes.

A few tips on the 300 Winchester. The 300 Winchester can be extremely accurate as witnessed by its current use as a mid range sniper rifle and competition rifle by the army. Given the case dimensions, especially the short neck, it should not be as accurate as it is, but it is.

First, get a rifle with a GOOD 26" barrel. If you don't have 26" to work with, forget a 300 Winchester, you're wasting powder making muzzle blast and flash. You want at least a medium taper barrel, not a slim sporter. And 1-10 twist. It IS worth it to by a used rifle and send it to E.R. Shaw and have them put a nice match barrel on it, as well as their other tricks and tweaks. They can take any 30-06 bolt action of good quality and rebarrel it with a nice match barrel as well as do their action magic for under $300. There is a back log of about 4 months. But it is the best budget approach to having a super nice shooting 300 Winchester. If you bought a used Model 70 for $300 or so, and had E.R. Shaw do their thing, you'd be at or under $600, for a better rifle than you can buy for $750. On my Model 70 rifles I adjust my own triggers for release and travel. But I learned how to do it over time.

Fireform your cases to YOUR Rifle, and from then on, DO NOT full length resize, neck size ONLY, and use thme in your rifle only. The 300 Winchester has a short neck, it is less than one full caliber in length. So getting the neck sized correctly is critical, and full length sizing is wasting time and effort, and hardening your brass.

Use a powder that fills the case for your selected power level, so that powder is uniformly distributed. The 300 Winchester is a hot high pressure round, and it likes to be pushed, it does not do well loaded down, so work your way up to something fairly hot that shoots well.

Clean the flash holes and primer pockets, religiously. Measure the case thickness at the neck and beware any changes.

Experiment with seating depth of the bullet. Different chambers are different lengths, you need to find the right length for YOUR gun. Watch carefully for pressure when varying over all length, as length, and how close the bullet is to engaging the rifling WILL change pressure.

Competition dies DO make a difference. RCBS dies are nice, Saeco Redding is even better. When seating bullets and taper crimping the case neck, rotate the case 90 degrees 2-3 times to make sure you have a concentric taper crimp.

That should give you a good start.
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Offline Xargos

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Advice on my first long gun purchase
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2007, 07:40:31 PM »
Quote
Experiment with seating depth of the bullet. Different chambers are different lengths, you need to find the right length for YOUR gun. Watch carefully for pressure when varying over all length, as length, and how close the bullet is to engaging the rifling WILL change pressure.


Should I aim for the least amount of Freebore, as in so close it's touching with this type of round?

P.S.  Coshy, Hope I'm not hijacking your thread, just let me know if I am.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 07:51:15 PM by Xargos »
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Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2007, 07:58:59 PM »
Surplus M38 or Mauser, and a .22 plinker. When I get back to the states my first purchase is going to be a authentic 98k to complement my current yugo from 44.


Men carry surplus. limp wristed nancy boys ***** about the weight of the sporterized crap
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2007, 08:41:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xargos
Should I aim for the least amount of Freebore, as in so close it's touching with this type of round?

P.S.  Coshy, Hope I'm not hijacking your thread, just let me know if I am.


Xargos,

That depends on the individual rifle. What works for one rifle may not work for the one made just before or after yours. It's a trial and error situation and makes setting up "pet" loads for your rifle a labor of love. Every one is an individual and will perform best when you work out all of the variables. Consider different brands and lots of cases, primers, powder and bullets. Changing one variable means you may have to start it over. That will mean you will be forced, forced I say, to go to the range and find what works best.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2007, 09:13:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xargos
Should I aim for the least amount of Freebore, as in so close it's touching with this type of round?

P.S.  Coshy, Hope I'm not hijacking your thread, just let me know if I am.



Maverick is quite correct. Often if the bullet is touching or nearly touching, the pressure rise will be greater than if it has a little travel. It does depend greatly upon the rifle and all the variables in the load.

I'm a fine one to talk, because I haven't bought one yet to replace the one I had that someone screwed up, but Oehler has great prices on chronographs, and serious reloaders should have one. You can use it to find major deviations in velocity, that'll let you know how consistent a load is.
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Offline Xargos

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« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2007, 09:19:57 PM »
The closest outdoor range is very far from me and is an all day affair, I'm just trying to get a good idea on where to start.  I have three manuals, one is from the 1950's, but I may need to look at getting more it seems.  I don't like indoor ranges because I have had lead poisoning in the past and I question how well they are ventilated.

Any helpful hints will be welcome.  We all have different experiences, so what might seem obvious to some might not have ever been considered by another.

It might be better if I started another thread on reloading as not to totally hijack this one.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2007, 09:32:54 PM »
I don't know of many indoor ranges that are capable of handling a 300 Winchester. It's a bit much.

IF you get a collet style (ruins the bullet) or inertia style bullet puller, you can load up incrementally hotter loads, say ten rounds each 0.2 grains apart, and take them to the range to try them. If you get to seeing pressure signs before you shoot the hottest loads, you can always pull the bullets and salvage some of the components.

There is no substitute for serious hardcore testing, there just aren't any shortcuts. There are just way too many variables just in the firearms, without bringing the reloading components (like differing lots of primers and powders, just for one or two examples) into the mix.

My old RCBS manual has some loads that are pretty damned hot compared to my newer Hornady and Sierra manuals. Now, my old RCBS manual was written back when Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith were still alive and kicking. The really cool thing about the RCBS manual is it has an article by Jack O'Connor on pressure and reloading.

Speaking of Jack O'Connor, he was probably one of the best hunters and writers of the old school. A serious diehard proponent of the .270 by the way, and took a LOT of game with it. These days, few writers are even close to him, Craig Boddington maybe the closest.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2007, 09:43:24 PM »
I've got the old manuals too. The loads have definitely reduced in the new books. I don't think there's any problems with the old or new rifles, I think there's problems with the new lawyers.  ;)


I went to school with Boddington. He knew he was going to be a gun writer when we were in college. You have to admire a guy that picks a dream and makes it happen. The only really strange thing about him was that he was Marine ROTC. :)
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