Author Topic: Advice on my first long gun purchase (Read 1648 times)

Xargos · « **Reply #45 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:12:14 PM »

What do you think the best scales are?

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #46 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:24:18 PM »

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Originally posted by Xargos
What do you think the best scales are?

I've had good luck with my RCBS (Ohaus) 5-0-5 scales. In fact, when they got out of calibration, Ohaus replaced both sets of scales for what it cost me to ship them the scales. Scales are mostly as good as you treat them. Most all problems are operator induced. Keep a good notebook, with a lot of detailed records. Weigh a couple of bullets, preferably at very different weights (say a 55 grain .223 bullet, a 168 grain .30 bullet, a 240 grain .44 bullet, and a 320 grain 44 bullet), write the weights in the notebook, then store THOSE bullets in your supply cabinet. You can use them to check your scales any time you want.

Warspawn · « **Reply #47 on:** May 08, 2007, 01:49:57 AM »

Hmm....

I think all you really need is:

Plenty of knock-down!

Really though, your .308 or .270 are great rifles, as are many 30-06's. I love my Remington 700.

For brush and long treks backcountry where you need to bust through foilage, the Marlin 1895GS in .45-70 is a terrific weapon, but it definately lets you know you've fired with its recoil

It also fits nicely in any canoe, brush plane or ATV you happen to be riding in...and will stop a moose or grizzly in its tracks.

My next rifle will probably be one of these:

"New for 2005 is the M1A SOCOM 11. Compact and powerful, it features a 16-inch barrel (the shotest allowed for a civilian-owned rifle) made possible by a retuned gas system. It is a heavy-caliber alternative for a CQB (Close Quarters Battle) rifle. as well as the ideal patrol, ranch or pickup rifle. other features include a black fiberglass stock, forward-mounted scout-style scope mount, and a proprietary muzzle break that virtually eliminates muzzle rise. The new Cluster Rail System of the SOCOM II further enhances its versatility by accommodating virtually any optic, light or other accessory designed to fit a standard picatinny rail.Around the world or deep in the backcountry, trust the M1A SOCOM 16."

YUMMY!

Coshy · « **Reply #48 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:18:48 AM »

Xargos - No need to worry about hijack, the reloading stuff is interesting. Not something I'm prepared to do, but something I am interested in.

Suave, you recommended going to a pawn shop, this is something I have thought about ... but I'm not experienced enough not to get shafted. It really comes down to a matter of trust, I trust the manufacturers to put out a good quality product, I dont trust the local pawn shops to sell a good quality product. However, it wouldn't hurt a bit to go look.

Several people have mentioned getting a .22, I'm not against the idea, but I don't typically buy things I don't have a use for. I don't have varmits to shoot at, and if I'm going to the range to practice, wouldnt it be better to practice on the gun I'm going to be shooting? Or would it be more like a warm up?

Again, you guys have been great, thanks for all the replies!

Toad · « **Reply #49 on:** May 08, 2007, 07:17:01 AM »

Shooting combines breath control, trigger control, stance, sight picture, timing and a host of other physical abilities. You can practice all of these with a .22 for less than .02 a round. Or you can practice all of those with a .270 for ~ .50 a round (currently on sale for $9.99/box at Cabela's.

)

The skills do transfer. Just get a decent .22 that shoots consistently to point of aim.

So yes, a .22 is a logical investment.

Toad · « **Reply #50 on:** May 08, 2007, 07:19:40 AM »

Warspawn, that SOCOM is a nose heavy, clumsy chunk. I haven't shot one yet but I've fooled around with one in a store. It'd be ok for a take-it-to-the-range gun but I'm already certain I wouldn't want to lug one around, especially when somebody loads up those front rails with all the tacti-cool stuff. Just my .02.

I like the idea a lot; I'm not too impressed with the execution.

derelict · « **Reply #51 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:10:12 AM »

As already stated anything you're gonna do with a large gun can be practiced (and honed to an art) with a small caliber gun (.22). Especially if you're wanting to practice things like fast acquisition of sight picture with a scope, breath control, action/trigger control, etc.

If you're getting a bolt action rifle with a scope for deer , get a bolt action .22 (Marlin makes the best I've ever shot) with a scope and practice with it. The ammo is cheaper, and the same basic principles apply to both. I like using my shotgun for small game (works better on grouse than the .22

) so my "seasonal practice" for the deer rifle is to use my marlin .22 to hunt groundhog. And if you can hone your skills to the point of consistantly hitting a movin target with a rimfire rifle (or a small paper circle for that matter) then you should have no problem taking down larger game (ala Deer) with one round

Maverick · « **Reply #52 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:20:53 AM »

Any time you are playing at near max pressure loads for a cartridge you should remember that the same powder varies from lot to lot much less later production runs that may have been tweaked by changing componenet. I scoured the shops for the new suplemntary powder booklets printed by the propellant manufacturers. Because they doi change the formulation and their components also have changes from time to time, the burning rates and pressures also change. If you are already at the max for one lot of powder, the new lot may actually put you over.

Some rapid burning powders also have significant changes in burning rates with small changes in pressure. This can change the way it performs dramatically. I stopped "hot rodding" my loads a while back when I had to pound cases out of my old Model 28 (.357 built on a .44 mag frame by S&W) by loading a set of rounds with a new lot of the same old powder I had been using. Nothing else had changed and I used a scale to weigh each round (my habit with max loads in all cartidges) as they were loaded on a single stage press.

Halo · « **Reply #53 on:** May 08, 2007, 11:13:38 AM »

Yeah, I saw a SOCOM .308 last week at a gun show. Impressive but I agree with the assessment of heavy, especially at the nose.

One of my sons-in-law is a veteran hunter and still prefers his Ruger M77 bolt action 30-06. As he says, "It only takes one shot with that." He has bagged a lot of Virginia deer with it.

Talked this morning with a guy back from two tours in Iraq with the Virginia National Guard. I asked him how he liked the M4. He said it takes more getting used to, that the M16 has more range. He said the .308 would have more oomph but the .223 is just fine.

He also emphasized the importance of getting skilled on iron sights first because sooner or later you can have a problem with batteries on the electronic sights. He does like the electronic sights, but in effect says don't bet your life on them (my interpretation).

Warspawn · « **Reply #54 on:** May 08, 2007, 03:34:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Warspawn, that SOCOM is a nose heavy, clumsy chunk. I haven't shot one yet but I've fooled around with one in a store. It'd be ok for a take-it-to-the-range gun but I'm already certain I wouldn't want to lug one around, especially when somebody loads up those front rails with all the tacti-cool stuff. Just my .02.

I like the idea a lot; I'm not too impressed with the execution.

Ah, that's too bad. I love the M-14; figured this would be a logical progression of the design. Maybe I'll just stick to my lever-action .45-70.

What I really wanted was a light-weight, short barreled semi-auto in a heavy caliber to protect against the ocassional grizzly or kodiak that decides to eat my plane, me and any passengers or supplies when I'm flying in and restocking fishers during salmon season. I've never had a problem where they wouldn't back off when I approached, but one guy got severly mauled at a lake when he was carrying up rations to a cabin from the dock where he'd parked his amphib. His weapon was in the aircraft; didn't do much good there. Was a bulky Weatherby .300 mag that just got too heavy for him to lug everywhere.

I may take another look at that BAR I saw in .300 WSM (the 'short' magnum round that's been very popular in semi-autos). Very impressive ballistics, and it only weighs 7 lbs or so...

eagl · « **Reply #55 on:** May 08, 2007, 04:06:52 PM »

A .223 will feel more like your hunting rifle (more recoil, probably a heavier gun, etc) and it'll still be cheaper to shoot than even a .270 or .243.

As for practicing at the range with your hunting rifle, if you want to be any good at all you need to fire hundreds of rounds from a variety of positions - prone, kneeling, sitting, over a low barrier, over a high barrier, around the side of a barrier, etc., because you never know what field condition you'll be in when you sight your target in the field. Unless your hunting will be strictly limited to sitting in a blind shooting at whatever wanders past, you really should be familiar with shooting from any position. That takes practice, and you'll wear out your shoulder, your gun, and your wallet if you use your primary hunting rifle to get that kind of experience.

So get a decent gun that is cheap to shoot, either .22 for the cheapest way to practice, or .223 for cheap but with enough recoil and noise to help keep you from flinching when you fire your hunting rifle. Wear it out. Shoot that sucker until it needs a new barrel. That way you can buy a hunting rifle that fits your desired game, not something that you will be using both for practice and hunting. If you will NEVER want to hunt large game, by all means get something small. But if you want a more flexible round that can be used for a wider variety of game, get something more powerful. Take it to the range and fire a handful of rounds through it each trip after you're done firing the cheaper practice rifle. That way you build general skills cheaply, and maintain familiarity with your hunting rifle without breaking the bank or your shoulder.

There are tons of neat .223 M-16 / AR-15 knockoff sporter rifles on the market and they're fine guns, but they all seem to be a bit pricy to me and when you carry them around in the field the BLM and other govt goons tend to jump straight from "hi" to "you're a terrorist, give me your gun" even when it's perfectly legal. There are plenty of cheaper .223 rifles out there that shoot just as good, cost less, and won't trigger the federal busybody patrols into panic mode.

Xargos · « **Reply #56 on:** May 08, 2007, 04:20:20 PM »

I think browning makes a 300 Winchester Magnum lever action with a 24 inch barrel that maybe easier for you to lug around instead of that 45-70, but I haven't heard much about it.

Grizzlies scare the hell out of me, if I had to trot around in their territory I'd be lugging a 338 Winchester Magnum around just for extra peace of mind. Even though they are bulky and kick three times more then a .270.

P.S. Capt, I found this quote when I was looking up info on the 375 H&H.

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"The .375 is one of my real enthusiasms in big-game cartridges. If I were going to hunt all over the world and could use only one rifle, it would be the .375. If I could have only two, one would be a .375 and the other would be a .270." -- Jack O'Connor, The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, Outdoor Life (1961).

P.P.S. I find this interesting about a 375 H&H on the same site.

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Sadly, these rifles are no longer in production. The pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 is perhaps the greatest bolt-action sporting rifle ever made. Such a gun is the dream of many a well-read sportsman. What makes the pre-'64 Model 70 stand apart from is post-'64 sisters is its controlled round feeding where the cartridge being chambered is grabbed by the claw extractor and held as it is pushed into the chamber. This allows feeding of the action upside down while you are lying on your back and being mauled by a bear, lion, buffalo, etc.

http://webpages.charter.net/375magnum/index.htm

Halo · « **Reply #57 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:03:16 PM »

Interesting .375 H&H link. Thanks, Xargos.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #58 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:48:16 PM »

Were I going to an area where I might run into a pissed off grizzly, I'd want either my 44 in my shoulder holster, or my 45 Colt on my hip, just for back up. I have loads for both of them that push 300 grain hardcast lead bullets to the high side of 1250 FPS. Close in, those will penetrate a grizzly skull, at less than ideal angles. They'll also smash large bones like shoulders and hips, and they penetrate real deep.

I may actually get to go where there are grizzlies and kodiaks, I'm thinking about a nice lever gun in 50 Alaskan, and maybe getting a 445 SuperMag or a 454 Casull.

When I do hunt where there might be bears or big hogs, I carry my Dan Wesson in a Galco shoulder holster, loaded with the 300 grain shells, and with two speed loaders with more of the same.

I hear a lot of people talk about wanting a big bolt action rifle like a 338 Winchester or a 375 H&H for big nasty pissed off animals. What really stops them is large diameter, heavy, medium velocity non expanding slugs. If you're in close proximity, the faster handling the weapon the better. Long bolt action rifles with long magnum actions are not fast handling. Short lever guns and handguns are. The only drawback to my single action 45 is it is slow to reload.

Xargos · « **Reply #59 on:** May 08, 2007, 07:23:21 PM »

The 454 Casull is a beast. A friend let me shoot his and the six rounds I fired made my hand hurt the rest of the day. What type of frame do they have, it reminded me of a plow handle?