meth

[indy007]

Some more food for thought...

The Taliban haven't come through with their grand spring offensive. It's not that they've run out of guys or guns, far from it... they're busy with the poppy harvest for the opium trade. It's worth over $70 million to them. That can buy A LOT of IEDs and AKs.

The Canadians tried to burn the fields, and all they got was a few stoned platoons.

The US solution was to send the DEA and experienced helpers from Columbia... who haven't put a dent in poppy growing.

So, instead of just licensing the farmers, and using the poppy harvest to produce cheap morphine for the third world.... we try to burn it all down, with little to no effect, and literally put money in the pockets of the people we're there to fight.

It's ridiculous.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Gunthr
decriminalizing meth, crack and heroin is tantamount to saying that the state will provide free meth, crack, and heroin to citizens.  Why?

meth, crack and heroin addicts are unemployable, socially pathological mental and physical wrecks.  who would want one working for them even if they were able to get into work?  

that begs the question; where then will American addicts get money to buy their government's drugs and pay the taxes that will supposedly be levied on them?  Answer: same place they do now.  

Unless America gives the stuff away for free to its citizens and relieves addicts of paying taxes, you haven't reduced crime.  But what you have done is to create another huge govermental bureaucracy to oversee and manage a collosal distribution system of addictive drugs to our citizens.  

Then, when the addicts  eventually sicken and are dying, taxpayers will be forced to pick up the tab, which amounts to "universal health care" except its only for addicts.  and of course welfare will support the children.  You have taken the country a step closer to socialism.

Methadone programs have shown that opiate addicts get along just fine when they have access to a cheap easy to get alternative. A hardcore heroine addict, who must steal to support the cost of his addiction, can get by on $40 a month taking Methadone, rather than $40 a day.

It's already a proven successful model on how to deal with addicts, their main problem is not being addicted... its the high cost of buying street drugs.

Isn't it in your best interest to allow addicts a cheap alternative rather than having them resort to crime?

The govs responsibility would be that of a regulator, not a supplier..  like with Alcohol & cigarettes they'd ensure quality control / regulate strength... and collect the taxes.

[Gunthr]

xMarine  - i don't have a problem with the methadone treatment programs for heroin addicts...  the treatment goal is to get off heroin, and to hold off withdrawal.

i wouldn't call it a replacement drug though,  ie, something that addicts would use interchangably with heroin.  Addicts orginally get addicted because they want that high where nothing matters.  That ain't methadone.  there is no buzz.  just a chance be normal.  

i don't think there are comparable substances to releive meth or crack addictions...  not that i know of anyway.   if there are some that would work analagous to methadone for H addicts, i'm pretty sure I'd have no problem with those either.

[lazs2]

Interesting viewpoint speed55...

You claim that if drugs were legal we would have a whole lot of dead teenagers out there and then go on to talk about all the addicted and dead teens we have now with "the war on drugs"

You explain how it is cool to hang out with the rebels and how many addicts you see lying near dead everywhere you go...  Doesn't appear to me that making drugs illegal is saving any lives... doesn't appear that it is making bad drugs scarce or less glamorous or crime free.

sirloin... yep... you should always preserve some drugs as being illegal otherwise... what will the drug dealers do?  they need some source of employment.

lazs

[Speed55]

My opinion is that we would have alot MORE dead teenagers, just because everything would be legal and the kids that don't do drugs now, just for the reason that it's illegal, might start.

As an example, the average teen might get a beer from one of the older kids in the neighborhood. He might like the beer but probably wont become addicted to it.
On the other hand, if suppose heroin was legal, and the same kid snorted a bag that he got from the same older kid, chances are alot higher than he's gonna become addicted and fiendish.

That's my theory anyway. True or not, who knows.

Looking back now, the people i hung out with were low lives, and by me hanging out with them, i also was a low life, but when your stupid and young and a drug addict like i was, your vision of reality becomes very blurred.

No excuses, i'm just glad i found a new group of friends, or they found me, and  that i woke up.

So overall it's my opinion that legalizing would be bad.
I don't make the laws though, so whatever happens, happens.

[Maverick]

No matter what here folks I just want to state this plainly.

To Laz, Speed55 and several others who admitted they had an addiction issue, I want to say that I respect very much that you were able to get straight and beat it in spite of the odds against it. All other areas of disagreement aside. Seriously.

[lazs2]

thank you mav.   I am embarassed tho when someone says that.

I was lost... beyond redemtion.   I asked for strength that I did not posses and was given it.   seagoon will understand that as will some religious and spiritual folks here who have done the same in other situations that seemed hopeless.

I am not religious but believe in a supreme being.. a god.. who will give us strength when we ask.

Some do not believe this and that is their right.   They would like to believe that they and... in this case.... I.... am so powerful that I did it all on my own.   I don't believe that.

I also had help from unselfish people who are not really what you would consider "sensitive" but none the less gave of their time in a very charitable manner.    

lazs

[Seagoon]

Hi JB88,

Sorry about jumping in so late, from the subject line I was expecting this to be a fairly typical BB drug legalization discussion.

Originally posted by JB88
i need to ask you for your help.

i have a cousin that i love very much who i am sad to say has become a longterm meth addict.  

i need to find a way to help her help herself.

all that i can give to her is my love and my affection and my mind and my faith and my energy and the belief that she deserves to be loved and believed in no matter what.

what i am wondering...do any of you have any thoughts, experiences, ideas resources or directions that might help in helping her to achieve this goal?

can she be saved?  have others come back from this hell?  is it at least possible?
...

You have my sincere sympathies JB, there are few experiences more painful than watching people you love destroy themselves.

I once spoke with a father whose beloved daughter started out well, walked away from the faith in college, started a coke addiction, left school, moved on to heroin, then began an absolute free-fall first into stripping and then quickly into prostitution. He said that by the time she was in her mid-20s she looked like a 40 year old and would lie, cheat, steal or do anything to get money for her next fix. Until she hit rock bottom there were always men around ready and eager to help her sink a little lower. All attempts to help her inevitably ended in miserable failure. He said that it would have been easier to bear had she been killed outright in a car crash, but watching her slow suicide and the progressive ravages of sin and degradation was unbearable. At heart she had no will to change, and so no amount of pleading or counsel from without made any impact on her. Her bondage to her addictions was total.

Of all the counseling situations I've handled, addictions are by far the hardest, the addict is usually caught up in a cycle of deceit both of himself and others, and the substance he is addicted to (drugs, alcohol, porn, etc.) have become his one all-consuming desire. They are like an idol that destroys its worshippers. Usually a person has to be exposed first, and realize that if they continue in the way they are going that only death or prison are at the end of  the journey. Put simply there has to be a real change of inclination, there has to be an honest desire to end their bondage to their idol.

You asked "can she be saved?" - is there hope? Yes, there absolutely is. At least two of the men in our church (one of whom is an elder and another who is an administrator) are a testimony to that fact. One of them spent years in alcoholism and addiction to serious drugs and attempted to hide those problems from friends, coworkers, and the church. Eventually, the problems were exposed and we began the hard work of getting out of that particular pit. The other was an ex gang-banger from South LA, and misusing drugs and alcohol had always been part of his life. In both cases, it was their faith in Christ and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that made the critical difference. Quitting by means of one's own unassisted willpower as Laz did is very difficult to say the least, and staying off once you have quit is even more difficult. And believe me, that I know about from having to deal with my own drug and alcohol problems when I finished University.

Generally speaking, Rehab programs will not work unless the person sincerely wants them to. Merely putting someone in rehab against their will or as a "this is your last chance" ultimatum will only result in their taking up drugs again when they get out. Also, the person has to be willing not only to stop using drugs, but change their friends, habits, and lifestyle. Often this will be just as difficult as getting them to quit using drugs. (try persuading someone who always stays up all night "partying" and then sleeps till at least 11:00 AM  not to go out with their friends, but to go to bed at a reasonable hour, to wake up early, and then work all day).

As others here have mentioned, whatever you do, do not become her facilitator. Help her, but do not make it easier for her to pursue her addiction, either by giving her money, bailing her out, or giving her the things she should be buying for herself so that she can use her money to buy Meth.

Depending on where she is, I know of one or two faith based programs that have an excellent success rate for getting people out of addictions. But if she doesn't actually want to quit, then most programs aren't going to help her much.

I'd also be willing to send you a terrific book I use in counseling called Addictions: A Banquet in the Grave by Dr. Ed Welch. It's a Christian perspective on addictions and a detailed approach to overcoming them and helping others to do so. Send me your address by PM and I'll give you what resources I can.

Regardless, JB, don't grow weary in well-doing, and if you are a believer, pray for her. When men work, men work, but when men pray, God works.

- SEAGOON

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by JB88


can she be saved?  have others come back from this hell?  is it at least possible?

8

Yes, she can be saved but she has to want it.  No matter how hard you and your family tries to save her, if she doesn't want it, she'll never get off the crap.

My brother was addicted to meth for 5+ years, and during that time it cost him his job, wife and lost full custody of his daughter.  He finally hit rock bottom when he was arrested one night by the FBI.  We found out that after he had lost his job and his wife took their daughter and left him, he started to rob banks and was finally arrested when his meth addicted room mate turned him in for the reward so he himself could buy meth.

Luckily, my brother got one of those "liberal" judges and prosecutors that saw my brother not as a bad person or criminal but as someone that had made some bad choices in life.  My brother was sentenced to 6 years in federal prison with the stipulation that he serve one of those years in a live in drug rehab center and after completion of the drug rehab, serve the remainder of his 5 years in a federal prison.  

The judge and prosecutor both recommended this rehab in San Diego called The House of Metamorphisis and my family are forever in their debt for getting my brother off meth.  They have a hard program and are tough but they have a very good success rate in breaking the addiction cycle.  

My brother has been out of prison for 12+ years now and has gotten his life back together.  He's now the operations manager for San Diego's largest waste management company, a member of his community's Chamber of Commerce, has a new wife that just gave birth to his first boy and he regained full custody of his 16 year old daughter.

I don't think he would have ever been able to kick the habit if he hadn't hit rock bottom like he did, got lucky and got a judge and a prosecutor that actually wanted to help and a fantastic rehab like The House of Metamorphisis along with the love and support of my family that stood behind my brother all the way.

It's going to be really tough for you and your family JB88 but if she succeeds and kicks the habit, the pay off is so worth it.


ack-ack

[lazs2]

seagoon... I did not say nor do I believe that I quit on my own on my sheer willpower..  please read my post before yours.

My daughter got caught up in it.   I have tried everything.  I have spent a great deal of money on rehab and have taken her in several times with results that started out good and deteriorated quickly.   I am helping my ex raise my grand daughter from her.   she has had an abortion or two since and now has another kid that I have not seen and do not wish to.

I have cut myself off from her as it was doing no one any good and I refuse to participate in the missery any longer.

I have heard that at present she is raising the boy a little better and maybe off the drugs.   I don't know.  I am sure that I will know tho when she gets it figured out.   I have been played too many times.

And that is the crux of it..  I consider myself pretty damn streetwise, especially where drugs and crime are concerned but... when it comes to someone you love..    

Well.. it is like zombies... you know they aren't the one you love anymore but you still get close enough to get bit.

lazs

[lazs2]

On of my daughters friends was just as bad... Her parents are mormon and have some money and sent her to jamaica or some such to some compound for a year.  

It worked.. she is a great lady and I enjoy seeing her these days.. she is married and has a baby and works and is finishing school.

I am leaning toward thinking that most programs are far too lenient with too much "victim" and "poor sick addict" thinking and allow too much interaction with other other addicts who don't want to quit and/or sympathetic and stupid relatives and others.

lazs

[Seagoon]

Hello Laz,

Originally posted by lazs2
seagoon... I did not say nor do I believe that I quit on my own on my sheer willpower..  please read my post before yours.

My bad, I sincerely apologize. I had just read MTs earlier post ("No one quits unless they are committed to quitting. I quit about the same time lazs did. ") and had meant to refer to him but mentioned you instead, possibly because he did. This is probably the result of my prior drug use. On a more serious note, I do sometimes wonder if part of the reason I'm my losing my short-term memory (aside from lack of sleep) is  the N2O, drugs, and alcohol I did in the late 80s and early 90s. They say that like prizefighters its only later on that the effects of consistently beating up your brain cells come home to roost.

- SEAGOON

[midnight Target]

Nothing heroic about my situation. I did a lot of drugs in the past, but I don't think I was ever "addicted". Quitting was relatively easy. I did have motivation other than just will power to drive me though. My marriage was going south fast, and I was going to make sure I would get custody of my children. I knew that if I was still doing drugs I would lose to their idiot mother no matter how much of a psycho she was. I quit, and I won full custody. I never regretted that decision ...... well maybe a little bit when the kids were teenagers.

[SKJohn]

Originally posted by Bodhi
I lost a brother to a heroin addiction.  Not sure which is worse, meth or heroin, but I will say this.  The only thing that can be done is to ask her if she truly wants to quit, if she does (and is not playing you to get more) then get her to a decent rehab facility.  There is one in Oklahoma (my parents and I were trying to get my brother there) that specialises in heroin and meth addicts.  I do know 4 years ago they had a 90% + success rate after 5 years with their patients.

Bottom line though is what Lazs said, she is going to have to hit rock bottom to want to change.  Unfortunately, rock bottom can be death like it was for my brother.

I'm in the same boat as Bodhi.  Had a younger brother that we knew was doing drugs when he was younger, but seemed to have straightened his life out.  Had a beautiful young wife, two great sons, and had just been baptized in his local church, a good job working for the county - everything semed to be going great.  His wife came home one night and found him OD'd and dead on the bathrrom floor.

What scares the hell out of me now is that I know that I'm an addict - a "legal" one.  I've been on 3-4 different prescription narcotic pain killers for a kidney problem for the last 3+ years.  There have been a few time when, during the night, I've woken up with the shakes, feeling all "ancy" and jittery, can't sit still, very agitated, etc., because I hadn't  taken a pain pill for a couple of hours.  I asked my doc about it and he says that was withdrawal symptoms.  I asked him if I was addicted, and he said "no, you're physically dependant."  I'm not sure what the difference is.  I know that if the kidney problem is ever cleared up, I do not look forward to going thru rehab or whatever I have to do.  Docotor says it will take 6 months to a year just to work me down off all the pain-killers I'm on.  Just the couple of hours that I've experienced here and there are enough to make me understand better what a living hell it would be for those who are going thru this.

[indy007]

Originally posted by SKJohn
I asked him if I was addicted, and he said "no, you're physically dependant."  I'm not sure what the difference is.

He was trying to make you feel better (and cover his own ass). There's mental addiction, and physical addiction. That's what an addiction is; for whatever reason, you're dependent on having that chemical. Different drugs have different types of addiction.. cocaine is largely mental, but some like meth & heroin are physically addictive.

I sincerely hope you recover from your kidney problems... but don't let your doctor BS you. I've seen way more friends and family fall to addiction with prescription medication than I have with illegal drugs.

I've never experienced withdrawl first hand except from nicotine.. which is very minor.. but I've seen friends eat a morphine lollipop for an evening buzz, then shake, run fevers, and puke their guts out the next day... and that was just a 1 evening "treat". My sympathies on what you may go through... but it's worth kicking the habit in the end if your kidney lets you.