Author Topic: ammunition loading and long-range ballistics  (Read 2129 times)

Offline Kweassa

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« on: May 06, 2007, 09:28:18 PM »
Up to date, there exists two schools of thought concerning long range gunnery - one emphasizing the human factor, and the other emphasizing the mechanical representation of general environment concerning the physics in the game. The former mainly focuses on the human ability to aim, which is greatly influenced by experience and innate talent, which unfortunately is unquantifiable and thus, unverifiable. Therefore, the latter usually emphasizes in removing possible human variation, and getting the general environment of the game to match that of reality as close as possible, to verify how much of human ability is really involved with a general phenomenon that is rarely observed in real life, but rather common in the game.

 By the definition of "long range" I am following the general rule of thumb laid out by the renowned Tony Williams - which sets about 200m as a limit for gunnery ranges where one can expect to land critical hits against a fighter plane, and 400m for larger targets such as bombers.

 Previously, I've pointed out that the ammunition counters and the distance indicators on the icons were the two main reasons (without dragging in the 'human variable' in the picture) why long range gunnery is seemingly more easy than it was in real life.

 The argument is;


1) The ammunition counter verifies the exact amount of ammunition left for use. If shooting a gun is like drawing money from the bank, it isn't hard to imagine that a person who knows about his exact bank balance would be more willing to able to spend his money according to a planned budget. On the other hand, if the balance remains unknown, then one would be more cautious and conservative in drawing cash from the ATM, and one would be more resistant to situations that which normally one would spend money without hesitation, if he had the exact knowledge of how much he can spend.

 Long-range gunnery is by definition, less effective than close-range gunnery, and thus, requires more rounds to be spent to expect the same hit probability as shooting at close distances. If there is no knowledge on how many rounds you have left, then the very thought of 'wasting' ammunition against an unlikely probability is met with considerable resistance - one can never know for sure just when his guns will stop firing, except for a vague "feel" of how many shots you've taken so far.

 Shooting from longer ranges is lower in probability, but the probability does exist as long as someone fires his gun. However, what if that someone is discouraged from taking the shot in the first place? That is what the existance of the ammunition counter influences.


2) The distance counter is a fleeting example of how a familiarized visual indication can immediately link up with general experience to achieve higher efficiency. The introduction of AH2 Beta had two major changes in the gunnery modelling, in that the the concept of 'hit resolution' was more refined, and the icon distance indicators became more conservative in exact information (previous incarnation of the 'icon' showed exact enemy distances, instead of the 200yd marks which we currently have). The overall result was that the effective gunnery range in AH dropped down by nearly 200yards - whereas in AH1 500~600 yards was a very common distance where kills were achieved, in AH2 the '400' marker (which in AH2, indicates that the enemy plane is somewhere between 400 and 600 yards) is now generally known as the 'safety' line.

 In short, in AH1, when you  saw an enemy plane behind at 500~600, it was a distance where you would normally consider yourself either "dead" or "in big trouble". However, in AH2, the "400" mark is a distance one may expect a reasonable chance of getting out alive, especially if you were the faster plane that could depart to the "600" marker in a few seconds. This general drop in gunnery distance is perhaps the single largest evidence that the 'human experience' factor is far too overrated, since those advocates of 'experience' used to argue the same thing in AH1.


 ....
 

 During the discussion of the thread on implementation of partial damage, suggested by BlauK, I seem to have stumbled upon another (possibly) fundamental reason on why long-range gunnery is more prevalent in AH2 than real life. I believe this is a previously unsuggested aspect (or at least, more or less completely forgotten) and might be worth a look.

 According to most people who advise not to use tracers at all, the tracer rounds have different ballistics than the normal, invisible rounds fired and will often be misleading to where most of your potent rounds are actually going (as opposed to where the tracer is 'pointing' at).

 Now, If the mere addition of luminous, burning phosphorous tips is that great to influence ballistics, as to be 'misleadin', then what if the ammunition type itself was different? Clearly this is something that does not exist in AH, but did exist in real life.

 What we know about AH so far, is that AH2 does not model ammunition belt sequences. Every round fired is a equalized 'generic' round one would expect from that belt. For instance, if a real ammunition belt had 50:50 composition and fired two rounds of one AP shell doing "50" damage and one HE shell doing "100" damage, AH2 will fire two rounds of "75" damage - a "generic" round.


 The perceived problem is this: note the following example comparison of the British Hispano Mk.II of real life and as depicted in AH2
 


* British Hispano Mk.I fired a mixed belt composition of:
 HET - AP - HE - AP

*AH2 guns all fire generic rounds in generic composition going:
 G - G - G - G - T


 Now, if someone in AH2 fires a Hispano at a range where the ballistics differences between the T(racer) and G(eneric) rounds would be potent enough, not withstanding the dispersion factor, if he has aimed for the G rounds to hit then the four G rounds will hit the target and the T round will miss.

 G(hits) -  G(hits) -  G(hits) -  G(hits) - T(miss) ....

 However, in real life, at a range long enough, where the ballistics differences between the rounds become potent, if one fires the Hispano so as to his HE round hits, then all the rest of the rounds will actually miss!

 HET(miss) - AP(miss) - HE(hits) - AP(miss) - HET(miss)...

 
 Thus, in the game, out of 5 rounds fired 4 rounds would connect, where as in reality, only 1 out of those 5 will hit. If the aim was good enough for the AP or HET round to hit, then it is both 2/5.

 AH2 does not model belt sequences. Thus, 4 rounds of 5 fired are identical, generic rounds that has identical ballistics properties.


Therefore, even if dispersion is factored in, it can be said that AH2 guns have at least twice as high base probability of hitting the target than actual rounds in real life - provided, that the shooting distance is far enough for different types of rounds to show considerably different ballistics qualities.

 Ofcourse, none of this matters when firing at close ranges, where all rounds will hit. However, one the range becomes far enough for different types of ammunitions to show different trajectories, AH2 guns have at least twice as higher base probability to hit the target, because AH2 doesn't have such a thing as a 'ammunition sequence'.
 
 

 All the more the reason to ask for ammunition belt sequence to be modelled in the game IMO.

Offline Blooz

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2007, 09:52:04 PM »
I feel AH2 guns have half as much probability of hitting the target than actual rounds in real life.

Why?

Most of us that play aren't trained combat pilots and we aren't in a situation that is a life and death struggle.

Why not ask for something simpler like gun jamming or wind?

Something as insignificant as the difference in tracer round trajectory would be alot of work just to make kids who are pretending to be fighter pilots miss more than they already do.
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Offline CFYA

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2007, 11:30:54 PM »
One would have to point out the fact that the average new player spends more time in "combat" in one month than the average WW2 pilot did in there career. I have no doubts in my mind an average AH2 pilot would have been a formidable and often almost unbeatable in most engagements during WW2. One could point out the differences between sweating a little on the armchair vs pulling high gs in a aircraft. This would be the next reason why ah2 gunnery is eaiser than real life. Make no doubts about it a average WW2 pilot would be waxed in this game.  


Ryan

Offline Blooz

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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2007, 11:43:33 PM »
I think the average WW2 pilot would be on your tail so fast it'd make your head spin.

He was trained in proper technique and would have the patience, knowledge and skill to make the average AH2 punk go back to playing Everquest.
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Offline Oleg

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Re: ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 12:11:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blooz
I feel AH2 guns have half as much probability of hitting the target than actual rounds in real life.


Absolutely wrong. btw, average hit percent in AH about 10 times bigger than was in RL, average shooting distance ~3-4 time longer.

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
2) The distance counter is a fleeting example of how a familiarized visual indication can immediately link up with general experience to achieve higher efficiency. The introduction of AH2 Beta had two major changes in the gunnery modelling, in that the the concept of 'hit resolution' was more refined, and the icon distance indicators became more conservative in exact information (previous incarnation of the 'icon' showed exact enemy distances, instead of the 200yd marks which we currently have). The overall result was that the effective gunnery range in AH dropped down by nearly 200yards - whereas in AH1 500~600 yards was a very common distance where kills were achieved, in AH2 the '400' marker (which in AH2, indicates that the enemy plane is somewhere between 400 and 600 yards) is now generally known as the 'safety' line.


As far as i remember, in addition to icons HTC got rid of "hit bubble" and made hit sprites smaller in same time.
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Offline Blooz

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2007, 12:31:28 AM »
Quoted - Absolutely wrong. btw, average hit percent in AH about 10 times bigger than was in RL, average shooting distance ~3-4 time longer.


You are the one that is wrong.

The average AH2 pilot has no reason to make every bullet count because his life doesn't depend on it.

I do agree however that the average shooting distance would probably be longer in AH2 than in real life and that's my point. The average AH2 pilot doesn't have a reason to get in close and get good hits. Since the bullets are not real they don't tend to develop good shooting skill nor conserve ammunition.
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Offline Oleg

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 12:53:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blooz
The average AH2 pilot has no reason to make every bullet count because his life doesn't depend on it.
...
The average AH2 pilot doesn't have a reason to get in close and get good hits. Since the bullets are not real they don't tend to develop good shooting skill nor conserve ammunition.


And because of it "average AH2 pilot" have gunnery ~10 times better than "average WW2 pilot"?
It like saying black is white.
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Offline Knegel

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2007, 01:17:32 AM »
Hi,

I still dont get the ammo counter and distance icon argument.

Experienced no icon gamers dont need both. They have a very good feeling how many rounds they have already shot and they are able to estimate the distances rather exact.

Imho the main reason for the long distance kills is the possibility to train with unlimited ammo and unlimited lifes.

Actually i doubt that long distance kills happen that often in AH, with realistic ammo setting. Even with unlimited ammo, people have bad problems to get kills above 400yard, if the enemy dont fly exact strait.

But to compare RL with a AH, we need to compare Combatflightsim newbes, who have much experience with a civil flight simulator, with the normal WWII pilot, or we need to compare the exceptions in WWII, the absolut aces, with the normal AH player.

AH pilots of course have a higher hitquote than the normal WWII pilot, but i doubt that H.J.Marsaille or Hartmann had only a 2% hitquote, their hitquote was rather above that of the normal AH player.

Edit: One reason for long distance kills in AH probably is lag related. I often get shot down from 0,8-1,5k, but if i ask, the oponent saw me in 0,2-0,6k distance and the other way around.

Greetings,

Knegel
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 01:25:29 AM by Knegel »

Offline Stoney74

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2007, 03:20:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by CFYA
One could point out the differences between sweating a little on the armchair vs pulling high gs in a aircraft.

Ryan


The sensations of actual flight, control stick forces, and G's are, IMHO, the biggest difference in real-world vs. simulated accuracy.  Negative G's cause some of the most uncomfortable and disorienting sensations in an aircraft, while control stick forces and pulling G's cause some serious strain on people.  None of these are or can be modelled in AH.  This doesn't even include the frantic fear, adrenaline, boredom, cotton-mouth from using oxygen, and overall exhaustion that builds up over the course of a 3-8 hour mission.  Almost every WWII pilot I know wears hearing aids and the noise and vibration must have drained their energy.  Also, recoil seems to have very little affect on the precision of the guns (not to mention disorienting the pilot) , even though the screen shakes--and the gun mounts are rock solid, even though in real life, the set harmonization of guns was changed every time they were fired.  

I empathize with Kweeasa and think that getting kills beyond 400 meters is gamey, but am at a loss as to recommend a solution.  I'm sure HTC has already considered the issue, and as with most things, the current state of gunnery is the best that can be practically created within the scope of their constraints.  Until its better represented, I'll keep hoping...

Offline Charge

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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2007, 07:51:07 AM »
IIRC in 109s the different ammo and even ammo in different guns was matched so that the flight time of projectiles was pretty much the same to 400 meters and different propellant loadings were available at least to 20mm Minen ammo to make such matching. Im not sure if, say, matching the flight time of 20mm AP and Minen ammo to certain distance would make them land at the same spot, as they are aerodynamically different and thus have different ballistics in longer ranges.

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Offline Tilt

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Re: ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 09:07:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
What we know about AH so far, is that AH2 does not model ammunition belt sequences. Every round fired is a equalized 'generic' round one would expect from that belt. For instance, if a real ammunition belt had 50:50 composition and fired two rounds of one AP shell doing "50" damage and one HE shell doing "100" damage, AH2 will fire two rounds of "75" damage - a "generic" round.


 The perceived problem is this: note the following example comparison of the British Hispano Mk.II of real life and as depicted in AH2
 


* British Hispano Mk.I fired a mixed belt composition of:
 HET - AP - HE - AP

*AH2 guns all fire generic rounds in generic composition going:
 G - G - G - G - T


 Now, if someone in AH2 fires a Hispano at a range where the ballistics differences between the T(racer) and G(eneric) rounds would be potent enough, not withstanding the dispersion factor, if he has aimed for the G rounds to hit then the four G rounds will hit the target and the T round will miss.

 G(hits) -  G(hits) -  G(hits) -  G(hits) - T(miss) ....

 


My understanding was that AH2 did not even configure  the T round as a sequential non/low destructive round.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2007, 10:34:43 AM »
Couple of corrections:

1) The distance 400 means the con is between 200 and 400, not between 400 and 600. The number means "already below this."

2) The reason ranges were reduced in AH2 vs AH1 was NOT the icons, but rather the horribly stupid "gigantic hit bubble" was removed and a real target profile was put in. The icons themselves had nothing to do with this, as you can set the same shots up at the same range (oh, FYI we still can see 1.0 on the icon meter so this is easy to verify) and in AH1 you'd have a sure hit, 100% of the time, but in AH2 you won't even ping it 2% of the time. Not icons at all. And thank frakking GOD they did this! The constant 1.3k sniping BS was really getting out of hand!


EDIT: P.S. AH's tracer rounds are no different than the normal rounds, I think. Same trajectory, they just are visible.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 10:41:04 AM by Krusty »

Offline Oleg

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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2007, 12:13:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
1) The distance 400 means the con is between 200 and 400, not between 400 and 600. The number means "already below this."


I dont sure, but i think 400 on icon means distance between 300 and 500, overwise i dont know how i can get 0 yards on icon :)
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Offline Lusche

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ammunition loading and long-range ballistics
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2007, 05:59:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oleg
I dont sure, but i think 400 on icon means distance between 300 and 500, overwise i dont know how i can get 0 yards on icon :)


You are right. At exactly 1k the icon label switches from 1.0k to 1000. After that: D800= 700-899, D600=500-699 and so on.
If someone is in doubt, this can be easily checked with the film viewer.
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2007, 07:11:44 AM »
The point is, over long ranges, where ballistics difference between rounds begin to manifest, some rounds are bound to have different trajectories which directly effect the hit rate. AH2's ammunition are generic in nature, and are all treated as same rounds.

 If someone's aim is accurate against a target at 600yards for instance, if we assume a 50% dispersion, out of 50 20mm shells fired about 25 of them will hit, which is more than enough to bring down a plane. However, were it real life the trajectories of rounds would be influenced by different type of ammunition, and as per the example in my previous post another bug chunk of accuracy and hit probability is knocked off from the initial aim, making it more likely to achieve around 5 20mm shells at that distance, at best.

 Note that this is not some artificial inhibition against AH2 gunnery which didn't exist in real life. It's simply a matter of accurate portrayal - ammunition belt composition and round sequence did matter. If some of the rounds are aimed and hit over such long distances, others, will miss - different bullet type, different bullet trajectory.... not to mention also, different damage effect per round.

 It's a step to be taken for the next stage of evolution fo AH2, and frankly its not a moment to soon. AH2 is already lagging behind the 'technological' arms race against some of its contendors, and these sort of gaps tend to always widen, unless something is done with it.