Merge tactics

[Emu]

I wanted to discuss a point of interest for me on a typical, equal E state merge.  Basically, what you would expect to find when you go to the DA.  Virtually everybody I fight that kindda knows what they are doing dive in when in con range and then perform an immelman as the first maneuver.  Its all good and proper, however, I've noticed some are able to pull a tighter immelman than I can, and that leaves me to wonder why.  When I first had some training a few months ago with the excellent AH trainers, and even after reading some posts, the mantra seems to be: "dive and get as much speed as possible".  Now, assuming equal planes, I have to assume some are pulling tighter immelmans because they either a) gain speed up to a certain amount, after all, the more speed the bigger the turn/immelman radius, or b) I am not pulling on the stick hard enough (which I doubt since I am riding a very small tunnel the whole time).  My question is: what do you do?  Do you gather "as much speed as possible" before the merge, or do you try to gather only up to a certain speed?

Any other tips/comments?

Thanks and regards,

Emu

[swift]

Most folks in the DA in this type of merge are totally blackedout when pulling back into the enemy plane, but not to the point that it is a sustained blackout. Learn to ride the G's your are pulling, keep in mind most DA'ers have lost sight of you due to this, and adjust your tactics from there. Force a remerge if possible.

I, on the other hand, prefer a very tight YoYo(though still riding the blackout G's) to converse some E to attain a remerge or rope.

There is no one way to merge, I've been very successful in just going into a climb rather than going immediately into a stall fight. Then again, I believe E-fighting to be the most effective dogfighting method.

Practice, practice, practice.
Film, Film, Film.

If he gets his "nose under" you on merge, look for an opprotunity to remerge or conserve your E by taking the vertical. Having altitude below you to play with increases your chance to use more defensive BMC/ACM and a possible rope.

Immelman's aren't the way to go, again in my opinion. Rather than doing one, try the YoYo approach. Just by taking an angle rather than straight loop you conserve energy.

It's my guess this is what is happening to you. You are burning off all your E performing an immelman, your opponent is above you or has more E, and is therefore in control of the fight or is simply getting a better angle on you because of this.

Also, always insist on the lightest loadout. There are many people who will say let's take 50% fuel and full gun package when in reality they are taking 25% with a lower gun package as lethality in the DA is set higher than the MA(this may be wrong at this point in time, but was true in the past). It's also a good idea to have a friend in the tower. Many people shoot off most of their rounds before engaging. These tactics are lame, but I have personally seen it done. Many DA'ers don't care about a fair fight, only shooting you down regardless if it's done on even terms or not(who needs bb's when you have hispanos).

Also consider a flat horizontal turn on the merge. Many people don't expect this, and due to their blackout you can come in from under with a decent speed.

And yes, on the merge you want to have as high of an E state as possible. This gives your more energy to burn in your initial pass and some to retain for manuveuring.

I consider myself a fair dueler at best, but I've had more than my fair share of wins. If you like I'd be willing to review any film you have and give some constructive critisism or practice with you in the DA.  The latter will also help me remove the rust that I am currently covered in.

-swift

Just my 2 cents.

[MWL]

Greetings,

  Oh, my!  You mean the vaunted Dueling Arena isn't any more 'fair' than the MA?  Who would a thought?  

Regards,

[swift]

Originally posted by MWL
Greetings,

  Oh, my!  You mean the vaunted Dueling Arena isn't any more 'fair' than the MA?  Who would a thought?  

Regards,

I really did lol inrl when I read this. Good one sir!

[Spatula]

The dive down pre-merge maneuver is not always about "getting as much speed as possible", sometimes it is, sometimes its not. By diving prior to the merge you are trying to do one of a few things:
 1. Not letting your opponent too far under you which gives them a gap to use against you. Eg by diving you cut off any vertical separation they can exploit, which keeps the merge as 'neutral' as possible. This is a reactionary approach.
 2. You aim to get under your opponent and aggressively dive hard out to get it so you can use the vertical gap for a lead-turn attempt. This is a more aggressive approach and your most likely committing to an angles fight.
 3. You purely want to get as much smash/speed as possible. Here your probably trying to bluff your opponent into a high-G, energy-wasting immelman reversal while you sail on by conserving E and climb then force a re-merge at an E advantage.

Generally speaking you want to either go for a fast aggressive angles-fight right off the bat, or you want to try bluff your opponent into blowing their E while you conserve yours and take a more measured E-style fight.

If your taking the aggressive angles fight, then you dont always want 'as much speed as possible' He who is slower at the merge will get their nose around the fastest (unless they are close to stall speed...). So the choice is do i gamble on deliberately entering the merge slower (chop throttle etc) getting my nose around after the first merge the fastest and hope i land the snapshot for the kill or get into a saddled up position; OR, do i enter the first merge as fast as possible knowing i will forfeit the 2nd merge snapshot opportunity and go for the 3rd merge after a consecutive immelman (two immels on top of each other) in the hope your opponent doesnt have the speed/E to enter the 2nd immel or pull it off without getting too slow and mushy.

My point is the dive before the merge may appear a standard opener, but theres no standard duel. Mostly its people jostling for position not speed/E advantages tho, but never discount the later. Max speed is only good for you if you have planned for it and its part of your tactics, if you just dive on in without regard for why your doing it, you have already lost. Its a game of chances, bluffs, risks, and payoffs or bust; with some pilots planning several moves in advance by setting you up or bluffing, or you may expect them to do that and they suprise you by going straight for the jugular.

[Emu]

Very nice response Spatula and swift.  I am average at best, and find myself losing some one on ones where I get the following comments: "you hold on to your E too much" or "you go up too much".  Since I am still losing, I can only think that I am stuck somewhere in the middle of commiting to a knife fight and holding enough E to actually pull off maneuvers my enemy wont be able to follow.  I sort of end up in limbo where, even holding a higher E advantage, I cant make the separation or angles large enough so as to deny them a shot.  I guess I still have a long road ahead of me.

Guys, this is most helpful.  Please keep it coming.

Emu

[Bruv119]

Just dont listen to mourinho  

[Spatula]

Originally posted by Emu
Very nice response Spatula and swift.  I am average at best, and find myself losing some one on ones where I get the following comments: "you hold on to your E too much" or "you go up too much".  Since I am still losing, I can only think that I am stuck somewhere in the middle of commiting to a knife fight and holding enough E to actually pull off maneuvers my enemy wont be able to follow.  I sort of end up in limbo where, even holding a higher E advantage, I cant make the separation or angles large enough so as to deny them a shot.  I guess I still have a long road ahead of me.

Guys, this is most helpful.  Please keep it coming.

Emu

"hold on to your E too much?" more E you keep over you opponent, the bigger your advantage margin becomes. I'd take it as a compliment, if your gunnin for the E fight. If you are going for angles, it means your nowhere near aggressive enough.

"you go up too much" - LOL thats the best one yet. Thats the name of the E game: keep the fight in the vert and if you can keep it heading upwards and catch the other guy trying to poke his nose up in the air (and maybe stall) where you can knock it off. This could also mean you are just plain BnZin, and, again, its not a bad thing, sounds like your doin something right in that case.

Just remember, if you go for angles and dont commit 100% to the angles fight you will likely loose. If you commit to the E fight and lack patience you will also likely loose. In an E fight (espc where E stakes start of fairly even) it would be a mistake to transition to the end-game too soon. It may take several merges where you gain a small amount of E on each one which will build you the advantage you need to convert to a firing position. Even if you have more E than your opponent they can still be very dangerous, so be patient and plan a couple moves ahead and set them up. The key is to know how to estimate their E levels - the better you are at that, the better E fighter you will be.

[hammer]

Originally posted by Emu
...the mantra seems to be: "dive and get as much speed as possible"...

The dive is to get flight path separation, which allows you to pull a lead turn (the immelman). A little extra speed is beneficial in pulling your immelman, but is not the primary purpose of the dive. When both opponents go nose-down in preparation for the immelman, it sometimes becomes a race to the bottom. At some point, though (I usually do it somewhere inside d600-d800) you should initiate the immelman. Being the first to do this means you have done the lead turn and gained an angles advantage. Just be sure to do it close enough that your opponent can't pull up behind you or get a shot as you pull up in front of him.

Originally posted by Emu
...I get the following comments: "you hold on to your E too much" or "you go up too much".  Since I am still losing, I can only think that I am stuck somewhere in the middle of commiting to a knife fight and holding enough E to actually pull off maneuvers my enemy wont be able to follow.  I sort of end up in limbo where, even holding a higher E advantage, I cant make the separation or angles large enough so as to deny them a shot.  I guess I still have a long road ahead of me.

Your analysis is probably (without seeing an actual fight) accurate. If your opponent thinks you are "holding too much E", it probably means you are trying to turn with them while at a significant speed advantage. Before you decide this is something you are doing wrong, though, consider how you got that E advantage.

If both you and your opponent are in the same or similar turning planes and are going nose down in preparation for the classic immelman merge, you should be roughly co-E. Your opponent out-turning you means he is either a) doing something to dump E and turn tighter or b) starting his turn first, which allows him to get guns on before you can. There are ways to counter either situation.

If your opponent is dumping E intentionally, he is trying to trade E for angles. Rather than trying to match what he is doing, which would probably result in a co-E HO situation at the top of the immel, think about exploiting your E advantage. One way is a very steep (60 degree or so) zoom. Your opponent will most likely try to follow but should fall off because 1) you have with more E and 2) he had to come further around the immelman than you did to follow; thus burning more E in a vertical turn. This is basically a rope-a-dope. The danger, of course, is mis-judging your opponent's E and letting him get close enough to get a shot. If he gets that close, a spiral climb might finish the job.

If your opponent is starting his turn first, he has taken the lead turn and has gained an angular advantage in the turn. This is much more difficult to counter because you are now reacting to his action. This may be a place where you need to dump some E in order to even out the turn to avoid giving your opponent a free shot. The danger here is your opponent might have enough E to do a second immelman and you may not because you had to dump E to compensate for his lead turn. A second immelman puts your opponent on top and in control.

[SkyRock]

If both planes have = E states, then the plane who gets under his opponent has the advantage in aoa possibilities.  Also, there are techniques of cutting power while in the turn and then kicking it back in with wep to pull out.  Also, the immel is not a good move after merge imho.

Mark

[hammer]

Originally posted by SkyRock
... Also, the immel is not a good move after merge imho.

In the MA with multiple bandits I agree. In a one-on-one co-E duel I think it's fine; particularly if your opponent is agreeable enough to go nose down at the last minute trying for the HO. It's certainly not the merge to beat all merges with but is useful in teaching not only about lead turns but in the advantages of vertical maneuvering vs flat turns.

Regards,

Hammer

[Murdr]

I don't know if you saw this write-up which diagrams the importance of the vertical separation at the merge.  The main body covers only the 3 basic reversal maneuvers, but if you watch the last reference film in it (this film), in the 2nd 1/2 of that film, there are more advanced maneuvers and techniques demonstrated, along with a real time discussion that might help you out.

[Emu]

Thanks for all the replies so far.  I think I am starting to understand what is happening a little bit more, especially after taking a look at the film.  Seems like my lack of aggressiveness can be a factor, which is causing me to "hang" a bit more perhaps prolonging some maneuvers and holding onto E, instead of trading off for angles more and getting a guns solution.  Since I dont fly a particularly fast plane, this is where some take the opportunity to disengage and run away.  I've done a fair bit of reading on ACM, and have endeavoured to practice as much as possible.  The limiting factor of course is the opponent quality in the MA.... sometimes it seems as if just being able to spell ACM will guarantee a victory in every fight, and there are those days when i bump into a group of vets and it becomes more like 1 victory for every 4 deaths or so.  One thing I have definitely noticed is that a lot of the vets seem to go for angles very quickly, and I have found myself using the rope a dope very effectively, or doing an immelman on top of my immelman (or chandelle, or yo-yo) and finding them flopping below.  That is when i swoop by, my gunnery fails me, i overshoot, and i become dead bird again.

Emu

[lagger86]

Originally posted by Murdr
I don't know if you saw this write-up which diagrams the importance of the vertical separation at the merge.  The main body covers only the 3 basic reversal maneuvers, but if you watch the last reference film in it (this film), in the 2nd 1/2 of that film, there are more advanced maneuvers and techniques demonstrated, along with a real time discussion that might help you out.

wow, thanks for posting that film Murdr. That helped me understand why my merges go so terribly wrong all the time.

[wetrat]

I can't remember the last time I went for the stick-to-belly immelman merge. There are just too many ways to lose... he goes a little slower than you, you can get popped. He goes way faster, you're put in a bad spot right away. I almost always start a lazy turn to the right off the merge, and try to force a rolling scissor. If I don't manage to get a scissor started (ie. whoever I'm dueling isn't very aggressive, or tries to yo-yo or something), I'll generally get a snapshot if I'm flying well. I'm bad at describing things. PM me if you want me to dig up some films? I dunno. I basically just try to force you into making a mistake by reacting to whatever you're doing.