P-38 weight

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Krusty
Er... no.

Sorry to be blunt, but if both aircraft are the same, and it's ONLY up to pilot skill, then if BOTH aircraft are 200lbs less (thus, still "the same") it's not going to change the outcome at all.

I was speaking of an engagement where both aircraft are the same type of airplane (for instance, both P-38L's or both Spitfires Mark I's), but one is carrying two hundred pounds less than the other.  Why would I use an example of two airplanes of the same weight, when I'm trying to explain that a difference of two hundred pounds is quite noticeable?  By "difference" I mean "difference in weight between two otherwise identical aircraft."

By the way, most of my duels involve a mixed match.  However, even then, two hundred pounds extra on one of the ships will always be a large disadvantage (unless that ship is significantly better than the lighter one).  The is particularly true if the duel is a relatively close dogfight and not a prolonged, chase-type energy fight.

Stang, what we're saying is that there's no reason to use the J currently, because the J and L are identical in the game except that the L has dive flaps and power ailerons.  And they shouldn't be.

[Krusty]

Well Benny you weren't clear about that. You made it seem as if the duel was the typical "same plane" setup.

If it's not, then any number of factors could change it. If you're figthing a L in a J, sure maybe 200lbs could make a difference.

If you're fighting a spixteen in a J, 200lbs won't help any more than the average weight fluctuations of any fight.

If you're fighting a P51D in a J, 200lbs still won't help any more than average fluctuations.

Getting bounced early in a sortie vs. flying to the enemy base makes more of a difference because of fuel weight, IMO.

Like I said, I'd like to see things fixed, 109s, 190s, 38s, mossies, doesn't matter what plane, but IMO it really won't change the plane performance.

[Stang]

Should the J be lighter?

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Stang
Once you get above roughly 300mph the two planes could not be any more different.  If you don't think that boosted ailerons and dive flaps fundamentally change the way the plane can be flown, you must not really have ever flown the two 38's in AH.

I disagree. The ailerons do make a difference in roll rate, sure.... But for the most part you're never going to do effective rolling scissors at 350mph. I mean, if you're coming in that fast you're probably in a dive or in a BFM, which means you don't need to really roll that quickly.

The dive flaps are handy at times, but still, aside from compression, they don't really help too much.

So, there ARE differences, but they have almost identical speed, climb, performance, the only difference being roll rate above 300mph.

I personally don't think that's "completely different".

[Benny Moore]

(I just edited my previous post to add more, Krusty, I didn't realize you'd already read and replied.)

Stang, I don't know whether the J should be lighter than it is now or the L should be heavier than it is now, but the J should definitely be lighter than the L,  by all sources.  The amount of weight depends on which production block the J is.  If I remember correctly, the P-38J-15-LO (what we have in game, since it has the 420 gallon tanks, but not the dive flaps and roll boost) was 200 lb. lighter than the P-38L, and the P-38J-25-LO (which was identical to the P-38L except for the engines) was about 40 lb. lighter than the P-38L.

Originally posted by Krusty
If it's not, then any number of factors could change it. If you're figthing a L in a J, sure maybe 200lbs could make a difference.

That's what I mean.  Right now, fighting an L in a J is pointless, because they're the same weight and the L rolls and dives better.  If it were correctly modelled, however, the J would be 200 pounds lighter and thus would have some advantage over the L to counter the L's advantages of roll and dive.  And as I said, that 200 pounds would be noticeable, as noticeable as the difference between a Spitfire with 25% fuel and one with 50% or 75%.

By the way, as a dedicated L flier, I do miss terribly the roll (though I never dive flaps, as I don't like to rely on them) if ever I fly a different P-38.  I do a lot of high speed reversals, believe it or not.

[Hoarach]

Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: I agree there's little reason to have both J and L in this game, almost identical, especially if you chart the top speeds at all altitudes.

First of all I have to ask Krusty...how much do you actually the 38s?  

There is no way the J and L are identical.  Since all I fly are 38s, I can actually see a difference.  Many will say, oh there is no difference Ill just take the L so I can pork something.

The L is heavier but handles better with its boosted ailerons.  Also if you level flight the J and L, the J is faster.  Since the J is lighter, it also climbs better than the L.

Like Stang said there is a difference between the 38s.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Hoarach
The L is heavier but handles better with its boosted ailerons.  Also if you level flight the J and L, the J is faster.  Since the J is lighter, it also climbs better than the L.

Look at the stats in the game.  They're exactly the same weight in the game.

By the way, in reality, the L was faster since it had the more powerful F-30 engines.  But that's another argument for another time.

[Guppy35]

What Hoarach says.

As another 38 flyer there are differences between the three.  Obviously the G is my favorite, followed by the J then L.

The L is just heavier to me and I have a tougher time riding the edge in the L.  That is true to a lesser degree in the J and since I fly the G consistantly I can take that one further to the edge.

Krusty sometimes you just have to let it go.

It would be a bit like me saying all 109s are alike.  Why have the G-2, G-6 or G-14, they all fly the same to me.

Why have a 190 A5 and a 190A8.  They seem the same to me.  And what's the point of the F-8?  Why not just take an A-8.

Why all the F4U versions.  They fly the same for the most part to me.

Get the point?  Of course I'd never say it, because I know the LW guys. the Spit drivers and the Corsair drivers have their preferences too, and why not allow for that in the game.  

Most of us 38 guys would also love to have the E, F and H, but we can live with what we have.  Kinda like the LW guys who don't have exactly the version they want, but live with the multiple variants they can fly, or the Spit drivers who do the same.

Oh, and since I like the history, it makes little sense for me to suggest taking an L in a early 1944 time frame, when it makes perfect sense to take the J.

Maybe that's enough reason to have the correct versions for the correct time frame.

38G covers the 42-early 44 range well
38J covers  early 44 well into 45
38L covers late 44 to 45.

All be darned.  Old Pyro picked em well to cover just about the entire wartime period where the 38 was in combat.

So Krusty, let it go.  Think it all the way through next time before you say stupid stuff

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
We have the P-38J-15-LO in Aces High, as that was the last block to be produced without dive flaps or boosted ailerons.  Now, even the heavier P-38J-25-LO was still something like forty pounds lighter than the P-38L - probably due to the engines.  In Aces High II, the P-38J and P-38L are exactly the same weight.  Since we have a J-15, should there not be a difference between the two of about two hundred pounds, one way or the other?

People keep asking me which P-38 turns better, P-38J or P-38L.  I know many swear that the J does, but not only can I not feel it but the in-game charts do not support it (nor do those at Netaces).

Thought it was a J-10 myself since the J-15s were the NMF birds while the J-10s were the last of the OD/Gray.

[Benny Moore]

Hmmm, you could be right; I thought that the J-10 didn't have the 420 gallon tanks.  I have Bodie's fine book handy, I'll check.

What's NMF and OD?  I'm terrible at acronyms.

[edit]I can't find it.[/i]

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Krusty sometimes you just have to let it go.

It would be a bit like me saying all 109s are alike.  Why have the G-2, G-6 or G-14, they all fly the same to me.

You're missing the point.

Do a speed plot test for the P38 L and the J, do sea level, 5k, 10k, 15k, and 20k... The speeds are identical except in one small area where they are only a few MPH different from each other.

I know this. I tested this quite some time ago, and even posted about it here. I believe several folks read the thread, as somebody said "Hrm.. I guess that mans we have X P38J instead of Y, which would have been better".

The speeds are almost identical. Benny's shown the weights are identical.

The only real difference is the ailerons, and yes I admit better roll can help a plane, but at slower speeds these boosted ailerons don't help any more than unboosted ailerons in the other 38 version we have.

You miss my point entirely. I'm not saying "the LA5 and the LA7 are almost identical, why do we have both" -- I'm saying "the ONLY difference between the J and L is boosted ailerons and dive flaps" (not counting ord options). It's almost entirely the same aircraft, as modeled now.

P.S. in response to Hoararch: I'm not a self-proclaimed expert or anything like that, but I've flown them all. I like the G because it has no WEP and turns a bit better, but have flown all 3 enough to not be totally newbish.

EDIT: P.S. Guppy, "Sometimes you just have to let it go" -- let what go? All I've said is stuff you can independently verify. I'm not even talking about the real aircraft, only about THIS GAME. In this game you can check the info out for yourself. I fail to see what "I have to let go" -- I've not been doing anything that warrants such a crack.

[Krusty]

Ya know what? Forget it. You folks wanna pretend the L is faster than the J, go for it.

I don't need to take crap for pointing out basic things that YOU can check for yourselves.

You wanna pretend one is faster and one is lighter, I don't care! Believe the urban myth. I didn't want to start some BS pissing contest.

Original point was: taking 200lbs from a plane weighing over 17000lbs won't do jack to help it in almost any situation. If you're THAT concerned about weight you'll shoot off all 50 cal rounds before you enter the fight, never fight with more than 25% internal fuel, and never have more than 1 fight per sortie. Knock yerselves out!

EDIT: fixed weight based on AH info page.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Hmmm, you could be right; I thought that the J-10 didn't have the 420 gallon tanks.  I have Bodie's fine book handy, I'll check.

What's NMF and OD?  I'm terrible at acronyms.

[edit]I can't find it.[/i]

Painted birds vs natural metal finish birds.  Of course the painted birds weighed more

One of the reasons beyond production ease, that they removed the paint was the weight penalty.  It gave a few more mph to be unpainted.  It was lighter

Not sure how much the paint on a P38J weighed however.

Any pound of weight saved, to a pilot meant better performance.  So that 200 pounds you speak of, would make a difference.  Photo of the first production J-15 in Bodie's book shows it unpainted NMF bird so the painted 38s stopped in the J-10 series which if the paint job is accurate on the AH bird would point to it being a J-10.

Lots of instances of J-10s flying right to the end of the  war with the 474th FG 9th AF on the continent.  This was alongside the L-1s they got towards the end.

[Krusty]

I will add one bit of info that may or may not help: The skin is not necessarily an indicator of the model in the game. The data used to program the model was in place well before the skinner chose which skin to put on it, and the two may not coincide with each other.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty
I will add one bit of info that may or may not help: The skin is not necessarily an indicator of the model in the game. The data used to program the model was in place well before the skinner chose which skin to put on it, and the two may not coincide with each other.

Understood, and there are instances of J-15s painted in theater.

I'm only speculating based on the choice of an OD bird for the default and if it's geared towards CT it would have been J-10s to start with the ETO 38 groups, outside of those early Hs.

J-10 seemed the closest compromise to not having the H too for CT.

Again since it's not stated anywhere, it's entirely possible it's based on a J-15.

Did find a photo of one of the first NMF birds and it's a J-10