P-38 weight

[Benny Moore]

We have the P-38J-15-LO in Aces High, as that was the last block to be produced without dive flaps or boosted ailerons.  Now, even the heavier P-38J-25-LO was still something like forty pounds lighter than the P-38L - probably due to the engines.  In Aces High II, the P-38J and P-38L are exactly the same weight.  Since we have a J-15, should there not be a difference between the two of about two hundred pounds, one way or the other?

People keep asking me which P-38 turns better, P-38J or P-38L.  I know many swear that the J does, but not only can I not feel it but the in-game charts do not support it (nor do those at Netaces).

[Serenity]

Bumped because its a good question.

[Krusty]

I don't have an answer, per se.

I do have a response. Similar to folks firing off the rear gun ammo on the 110 or firing off the cowl MG ammo on the 190s...


"Do you really think that 200 lbs is going to make that much of a difference on a 12,000lb plane?"

I don't.


EDIT: P.S. the 2000 rounds of 50cal alone come to 620 lbs. The 150 Hispano rounds come up to 90 lbs. The fuel itself comes out to 6 lbs per gallon. Burn off 33gal and you've just saved 200lbs.


Hell, 200 lbs is a drop in the very large bucket.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Krusty
I don't have an answer, per se.

I do have a response. Similar to folks firing off the rear gun ammo on the 110 or firing off the cowl MG ammo on the 190s...


"Do you really think that 200 lbs is going to make that much of a difference on a 12,000lb plane?"

I don't.


EDIT: P.S. the 2000 rounds of 50cal alone come to 620 lbs. The 150 Hispano rounds come up to 90 lbs. The fuel itself comes out to 6 lbs per gallon. Burn off 33gal and you've just saved 200lbs.


Hell, 200 lbs is a drop in the very large bucket.

I am glad you aren't a pilot.  200 lounds of weight is pretty huge especially when you look at the moment arm on that ammo placement vs. the CG...

Ohh, I forgot, you know "all"....  

[evenhaim]

bodhi now behave lol

[Krusty]

See my sig. Bodhi doesn't know how.

[Benny Moore]

Actually two hundred pounds will make the difference in a duel with fliers of roughly equal skill.  I had a few friendly Spitfire duels Sonic22 the other day.  When I took 25% more fuel than him, I consistantly lost, but when I dropped the extra weight, I started winning as much as I lost.  Since a Spitfire carries 85 gallons, the difference in weight was only about 125 pounds.  But it made a noticeable difference each time.

But that's not the point.  I'm not particularly concerned about the performance; the problem is that the P-38 has a bunch of equipment that the P-38J-15-LO doesn't have, and it should make a difference about two hundred pounds.  As it is, I see no reason for anyone to fly the P-38J in the game.  I'm not sure whether the J should be lighter than it is currently, or the L be heavier, but I am pretty sure that one of them is incorrect.

[Krusty]

In the sterile conditions of a duel you are hardly discovering which pilot can really fly their craft better.

Besides, most duels are done in the same craft, to make it more of an even keel for the fight.

So, for duels, it doesn't matter.

For other situations, you might as well fly with 25% fuel, if you're so concerned. You'll save a LOT more than 200 lbs.

Then again, same goes for every plane in the game. You want to fly super-light, you have to pay the price (fuel supply). Doesn't matter if the P38 is 200lbs lighter than the one next to it, because the one next to it could have a lot less fuel, or the spit it's up against could have full fuel and a full slipper, who knows?


I'm just saying, it's a drop in a very big bucket.


EDIT: I'm all for fixing modeling bugs. If it's presented as one. However, I don't think it'll give anybody an edge, if it were fixed. Not any more than firing off the tail guns on the Bf110G (40lbs on a 15000lb frame) or the MG17 ammo on the 190a (170lbs on a 8500lb frame). It's just placebo effect.

[Benny Moore]

On the contrary; under the equal conditions of a duel - a fair fight - pilot skill is the only deciding factor.  And if the same aircraft are used, two hundred pounds means the difference between winning and losing if the pilots are close in skill.  Saying "a drop in the bucket" implies that it makes very little difference, but let me ask you a question.  If you're in a Spitfire with three quarters fuel, and encounter another Spitfire with equal energy, would you rather he have 25% fuel or 75%?  Would you then care to claim still that two hundred pounds is a little thing?

Again, though, the problem with the P-38 isn't so much winning or losing, it's about it being incorrect and about there being no reason to fly the P-38J instead of the P-38L.  Right now, the P-38J is exactly the same as the P-38L, but with worse roll and dive.  It should be a tradeoff, with the P-38J having worse roll and dive but slightly less weight.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
On the contrary; under the equal conditions of a duel - a fair fight - pilot skill is the only deciding factor.  And if the same aircraft are used, two hundred pounds means the difference between winning and losing if the pilots are close in skill.

Er... no.

Sorry to be blunt, but if both aircraft are the same, and it's ONLY up to pilot skill, then if BOTH aircraft are 200lbs less (thus, still "the same") it's not going to change the outcome at all.


2 pilots in totally sterile conditions flying the same P38L or the same 109f or the same p51d, in your example it doesn't matter if they both have 100% fuel or both have 25% fuel for any fight between them, because it's the pilot.


So, like I said, in a duel it means nothing.



EDIT: I agree there's little reason to have both J and L in this game, almost identical, especially if you chart the top speeds at all altitudes.

[StuB]

Krusty, maybe I'm misunderstanding you.. (perhaps english is your "second language"?) ...but you just made their point.  

The point being that that if the aircraft are the same type/model but the weight is different by a couple of hundred pounds, the lighter a/c will have a performance advantage.

Originally posted by Krusty
Er... no.

Sorry to be blunt, but if both aircraft are the same, and it's ONLY up to pilot skill, then if BOTH aircraft are 200lbs less (thus, still "the same") it's not going to change the outcome at all.


2 pilots in totally sterile conditions flying the same P38L or the same 109f or the same p51d, in your example it doesn't matter if they both have 100% fuel or both have 25% fuel for any fight between them, because it's the pilot.


So, like I said, in a duel it means nothing.



EDIT: I agree there's little reason to have both J and L in this game, almost identical, especially if you chart the top speeds at all altitudes.

[Stang]

Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: I agree there's little reason to have both J and L in this game, almost identical, especially if you chart the top speeds at all altitudes.

So says you.  The two planes fly completely different.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Stang
So says you.  The two planes fly completely different.

Er... care to describe why you think that, when most folks I've heard have said there's little to choose between the two?

[Masherbrum]

Also, the Ki-61's wing tanks being emptied make a huge difference.

[Stang]

Once you get above roughly 300mph the two planes could not be any more different.  If you don't think that boosted ailerons and dive flaps fundamentally change the way the plane can be flown, you must not really have ever flown the two 38's in AH.