Author Topic: P-38 weight (Read 1709 times)

Guppy35 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 10, 2007, 03:11:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
You're missing the point.

Do a speed plot test for the P38 L and the J, do sea level, 5k, 10k, 15k, and 20k... The speeds are identical except in one small area where they are only a few MPH different from each other.

I know this. I tested this quite some time ago, and even posted about it here. I believe several folks read the thread, as somebody said "Hrm.. I guess that mans we have X P38J instead of Y, which would have been better".

The speeds are almost identical. Benny's shown the weights are identical.

The only real difference is the ailerons, and yes I admit better roll can help a plane, but at slower speeds these boosted ailerons don't help any more than unboosted ailerons in the other 38 version we have.

You miss my point entirely. I'm not saying "the LA5 and the LA7 are almost identical, why do we have both" -- I'm saying "the ONLY difference between the J and L is boosted ailerons and dive flaps" (not counting ord options). It's almost entirely the same aircraft, as modeled now.

P.S. in response to Hoararch: I'm not a self-proclaimed expert or anything like that, but I've flown them all. I like the G because it has no WEP and turns a bit better, but have flown all 3 enough to not be totally newbish.

EDIT: P.S. Guppy, "Sometimes you just have to let it go" -- let what go? All I've said is stuff you can independently verify. I'm not even talking about the real aircraft, only about THIS GAME. In this game you can check the info out for yourself. I fail to see what "I have to let go" -- I've not been doing anything that warrants such a crack.

BTW Krusty, I was responding more specifically to this quote of yours upthread.

"EDIT: I agree there's little reason to have both J and L in this game, almost identical, especially if you chart the top speeds at all altitudes."

Bodhi · « **Reply #31 on:** May 10, 2007, 03:19:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
See my sig. Bodhi doesn't know how.

LOL, and you can not tell the truth, exagerate all the time, and are well regarded as a "know-it-all"....

I think I have the better end of the stick, especially compared to you.

Hoarach · « **Reply #32 on:** May 10, 2007, 04:29:38 PM »

Oh Krusty...the J is the one that is faster. Many of the 475th and 80th fly the J and when I try to wing I always slowly fall back because in AH the L is slower than the J

And Corky...speak for yourself. I need my 38H and I wont rest until I have it!!!!!!!!

leitwolf · « **Reply #33 on:** May 10, 2007, 04:51:44 PM »

The original question still remains, and it is a good one:

go into the hangar, take both the -J and -L and on your E6B they will have exactly the same weight.

I always felt the -J handles better in a stallfight, but that's not only subjective but also has nothing to do with the question.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #34 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:23:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Benny Moore
I was speaking of an engagement where both aircraft are the same type of airplane (for instance, both P-38L's or both Spitfires Mark I's), but one is carrying two hundred pounds less than the other. identical aircraft."

That plane is not going to have a significant advantage over the P-38L that is 200 pounds heavier in AH.

For example, the time I entered your room and fought you, I had had taken off with 75% fuel since I had the assumption you were using the MA fuel 2x multiplier and am assuming that you either upped with 25% or 50% fuel, yet I was still able to maneuver for the kill within 2 turns despite having the heavier fuel load. But as will all things with life YMMV.

ack-ack

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #35 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:31:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty

The dive flaps are handy at times, but still, aside from compression, they don't really help too much.

Wrong but then you haven't had much experience in flying the P-38L and most likely haven't really done any research in how the dive flaps were used in real life by Lightning pilots so I'll over look your incorrect assertion.

The dive flaps can also be used as high speed maneuvering flaps above 300mph IAS, just as they were used in real life by Lightning drivers.

ack-ack

Murdr · « **Reply #36 on:** May 10, 2007, 07:45:12 PM »

Its 410 gallons. J-20-LO was the last block without dive flaps. I agree that the AH J is probably the -15-LO.

If you look at the USAAF charts, the L chart is just a copy of the J with the same data. Appearently the army thought the weight difference was inconcequential. With sources often giving the same weights, that is how they modeled it.

I personally would like to see the J be lighter by the correct amount even though it is not significant. I actually looked into this previously, but stalled out due to needing more sources for context. As it is, I think can account for about 165 lbs of basic empty difference that there should be between the J-15 and the L. There are probably a few more miscellaneous pounds also. If I happen to get enough sources together that Im confident in being accurate, Id be happy to submit the info.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #37 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:34:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That plane is not going to have a significant advantage over the P-38L that is 200 pounds heavier in AH.

For example, the time I entered your room and fought you, I had had taken off with 75% fuel since I had the assumption you were using the MA fuel 2x multiplier and am assuming that you either upped with 25% or 50% fuel, yet I was still able to maneuver for the kill within 2 turns despite having the heavier fuel load. But as will all things with life YMMV.

You're never going to tire of reminding me of that, are you. It happens that you won because you were better, and because my hands were in splints at the time (not to mention paining me greatly). Had we been in the same approximate skill bracket, you'd have lost badly because you took the heavier load.

I also recall that you consistently ignored my later challenges to a friendly rematch. That's fine, as I don't want an ego duel, which your refusal has proven it to be. I'd love to respect you because you are a great 38 flier, but I just can't because you're inconsiderate.

1K3 · « **Reply #38 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:04:13 AM »

No more crying and whining

P-38J and P-38L both have same weight...

17,000lbs
- Full fuel (100%)
- full ammo (2000 rounds .50cal, 150 rounds 20mm cannon)

* Confirmed by using the EB6

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #39 on:** May 11, 2007, 04:46:06 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Benny Moore
You're never going to tire of reminding me of that, are you. It happens that you won because you were better, and because my hands were in splints at the time (not to mention paining me greatly). Had we been in the same approximate skill bracket, you'd have lost badly because you took the heavier load.

I also recall that you consistently ignored my later challenges to a friendly rematch. That's fine, as I don't want an ego duel, which your refusal has proven it to be. I'd love to respect you because you are a great 38 flier, but I just can't because you're inconsiderate.

I'm sorry if you think I was pouring salt on the wound but I really don't recall ever really mentioning our fights at all in any threads, so to accuse me of "never tiring to remind you" is out of line.

I never declined anything, so please again, don't start stretching the truth. I rarely get to fly in the day time as my job sometimes has me working 12 to 13 hours a day and the only time I really get to play is at night, usually after 11pm. So that's the reason why I haven't been in your freeloader arena as you never have it up at night and I think you recently "banned" me from your freeloader arena as well. *shrug*

I hate to burst your bubble but 200 pounds is not going to give you any significant advantage in maneuvering that it gives you an edge, just like taking the lighter ammo load in the P-38 will not improve the maneuvering performance of the Lightning over the full ammo load.

Remember, you're not the only one that has flown the Lightning and some of us have been playing this game a tad longer than you have and some like me, all their fighter stick time has been in the P-38. We know all the tricks.

ack-ack

Murdr · « **Reply #40 on:** May 11, 2007, 07:34:37 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 1K3
P-38J and P-38L both have same weight...

* Confirmed by using the EB6

Did you actually read any of the thread? Like the starting post maybe?

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: fixed weight based on AH info page.

Which has errors by the way. It has the J internal fuel as 300 gallons, which is only correct for the ten P38J-1-LOs produced. The rest of the J series were 410 gallons. The loaded weight listed on the same page is with two 165 gallon drop tanks, while the G and L pages list "loaded weight" as internal only load. (posted that in bug reports long ago)

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
I'm saying "the ONLY difference between the J and L is boosted ailerons and dive flaps"

Just that upgrade weighs 115 lbs... Add 20 for L structural reinforcements...Add another 20 for the L standard radar installation...ect. Those things add up. Not to much, but they do weigh something. That's all Benny is saying.

Hazard69 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 12, 2007, 04:51:25 AM »

No way does the 38 J and L feel the same (and i only fly 38s)

J seems to accelerate a tad faster (top speed are similar for both but J gets there slightly quicker)
Below 150mph the L feels heavier. Both roll the same IMHO.
Above 250mph though the L rolls like a 190, but the J feels like a 109.
I think they both turn just as well, but if I were nitpicking I think the J turns slightly better instantaneously while the L maintains sustained turn rate for longer.

CAP1 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 20, 2007, 05:40:01 PM »

Hell, 200 lbs is a drop in the very large bucket.

200 pounds in ANY aircraft is a LOT. period.

you wouldn't take off over gross weight in a p51 would ya? i think it'd be a really short flight if ya did.....and not a fun ending either......

Knegel · « **Reply #43 on:** May 21, 2007, 03:52:48 AM »

Hi,

according to this comparison page our J and L are exactly the same.
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

Isnt it up to date??

Of course the rollratio alone make a significant different, specialy while highspeed manouvers. Its much more easy to make dive attacks in the L, noone is able to roll away and its so nice easy to evade attacks at this speeds, by using the rollratio, while the J is pretty much stiff, a rather bad highspeed attacker but a easy target.

Greetings,

Knegel

Benny Moore · « **Reply #44 on:** May 21, 2007, 04:55:57 AM »

That's what I've been saying here since the first post. Right now, there's no reason to fly the J in Aces High II, since it's exactly the same as the L but with worse roll and dive. Realistically, it should be a bit lighter, and that would give people a reason to fly it instead of the P-38L. Both realism and balance would improve if the two had their historical weight difference.