Author Topic: A mental excercise  (Read 2339 times)

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: A mental excercise
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2007, 06:27:57 PM »
To compare what we do in AH, to the real world WW2 pilots is absurd,  its easy to fire fake guns, and not be scared when someone fires upon you in a cartoon plane. not only that but the fact that every plane in AH has a giant neon sign over it.   please
    have respect for those who flew these planes.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 06:34:09 PM by ink »

Offline CarlsBee

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 107
Re: Re: A mental excercise
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2007, 06:40:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ink
To compare what we do in AH, to the real world WW2 pilots is absurd,  its easy to fire fake guns, and not be scared when someone fires upon you in a cartoon plane. not only that but the fact that every plane in AH has a giant neon sign over it.   please
    have respect for those who flew these planes.


:aok

Offline Kurt

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1149
      • http://www.clowns-of-death.com
Re: Re: A mental excercise
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2007, 06:46:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ink
To compare what we do in AH, to the real world WW2 pilots is absurd,  its easy to fire fake guns, and not be scared when someone fires upon you in a cartoon plane. not only that but the fact that every plane in AH has a giant neon sign over it.   please
    have respect for those who flew these planes.


The intent is not to compare.  

And discussing it doesn't disrespect anyone.  Jeez.
--Kurt
Supreme Exalted Grand Pooh-bah Clown
Clowns of Death <Now Defunct>
'A pair of jokers beats a pair of aces'

Offline bagrat

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1936
A mental excercise
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2007, 10:22:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
is the gunnery in real life going to be exactly the same as the gunnery in the game?

what about high wind conditions?

or consider the fact that the enemy never had red identifier and a distance marker attached.

---

i would be curious to know first if there have been any players who played this game for a while first and then went on to learn how to fly.  i'd like to know how much the game helped.

---

interesting question,


<----bagrat could pretty much fly a cessna 172 after AH
Last post by bagrat - The last thing you'll see before your thread dies since 2005.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: Re: Re: A mental excercise
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2007, 11:13:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurt
The intent is not to compare.  

And discussing it doesn't disrespect anyone.  Jeez.




 of course it does, maybe not intentional, but those guys died for US.
     and to think because we have more "virtual" hours in a plane we could do what they did? oh wait you said   "Each of us has thousands of kills over the years, thousands of hours of simulated combat airtime..

If you remove physicality, G resistance etc,"
   not one of those "thousands of killz" involved real ammo and real deaths,so yes i believe it is disrespectful to even talk about such.
     sorry if you don't see my point, but check this out if my memory serves me correctly when the "flying tigers" were instated they were a volunteer group,  in the first month of training they lost 12 pilots due to air to air crashes, crashes on landing and crashes on takeoffs.
    think about that.

Offline JB88

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10980
Re: Re: Re: Re: A mental excercise
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2007, 02:02:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ink
of course it does, maybe not intentional, but those guys died for US.
     and to think because we have more "virtual" hours in a plane we could do what they did? oh wait you said   "Each of us has thousands of kills over the years, thousands of hours of simulated combat airtime..


<----- sloooooowly steps away from the freak.


;)
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
A mental excercise
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2007, 02:51:53 AM »
The entire concept of ACM we have is solely dependant on what the game condition brings. Like many have mentioned, in real life flapping the flaps up-down-up-down-up-down, jerking the throttle front-back-front-back-front back, pulling a 5G turn, blackout, lose vision, regain vis., pull another 5G another direction, black out, lose vision again, regain vision again, push -3G, redout, lose vision.. and etc etc.. is frankly all bollocks.

 Every maneuver, every tactical decision is geared towards making it possible for the clandestine Elmer Fudd to help catch the two wascalwy wabbits named "survivability" and "mission objectives", and this required strict discipline and teamwork - and this is done solely by sticking to the principles which the pilots rigorously trained upon, and promptly chastisized when ignored.
 
 Get target fixated on one enemy plane for more than a minute, and then you look around the sky. Your wingman cries for help, saying he's got a 109 behind him. Among all those 109s and Spitfires buzzing around over the cliffs of Dover, which one is your wingman? It was your duty to help him - but unfortunately, they don't have the neon signs hanging around to tell you which one is which. By the time you actually locate your friend, he might already be going down in smoke.

 Real life ACM is committed to survival as a group. To know which plane is of your group you gotta constantly keep track of your own flight in the air. The point is to stick to the plan - you don't do that throttle zero, flaps dwon, gears sticking out into a 90mph rolling scissors crap in real life.

 In real life all the ACM needed is just the basic scissors, and following a preset course in a classic defensive Luftberry, as practiced and promised by all pilots in your flight. The attacker has only a limited time until the target's wingman comes to the rescue, which in that case he'll have to bugger out and go into his own Luftberry, hoping his own wingman will come in time. It's a battle of awareness and teamwork, and its not the guys who got the most flashy maneuvering skills that wins, but the guys who have more tighter teamwork that wins.


 
 So if you're saying how real life WW2 pilots would fare when they play AH2, they'll probably suck for real. None of them is going to be able to all that flapping, throttling, stick mashing, bag of tricks we do on an everyday basis, because in our AH2 world, we are governed by our own law of ACM. The rules are different, and thus the game is different. Even if a real WW2 pilot in his prime, can magically come play AH2 for several months I doubt he'd ever do any better than the average players.

 On the other hand, if we change the rules of AH2 to that of real life (perhaps, excluding the death factor), remove every single bit of crutch we have and play it at their game, not ours, I can guarantee we gonna be owned.


 In a loose sense, we leave all the awareness levels to the machine which automatically keeps track of your friends and enemies on screen, in the form of dot dar and icons... and we still get people who are target-fixated and gets shot down everytime, with their K/D going below 1.0. The real life pilots had only their eyes and hands to do everything the machine does for us currently, and not a single "death" was acceptable on their score card - and they had to do that almost every day.

 Under those rules, even if it is a game, not a whole lot of people would be willing to do that "ACM" thingy.




 Therefore, the comparison is itself meaningless. The only thing we've got in common with real life is that we use a roughly simulated version of their planes. Everything else is different. Even if we send the best of our AH pilot to real life, he'll soon be flying like real life, because it is real life.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 02:54:48 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Kurt

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1149
      • http://www.clowns-of-death.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: A mental excercise
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2007, 08:27:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ink
of course it does, maybe not intentional, but those guys died for US.
     and to think because we have more "virtual" hours in a plane we could do what they did? oh wait you said   "Each of us has thousands of kills over the years, thousands of hours of simulated combat airtime..

If you remove physicality, G resistance etc,"
   not one of those "thousands of killz" involved real ammo and real deaths,so yes i believe it is disrespectful to even talk about such.
     sorry if you don't see my point, but check this out if my memory serves me correctly when the "flying tigers" were instated they were a volunteer group,  in the first month of training they lost 12 pilots due to air to air crashes, crashes on landing and crashes on takeoffs.
    think about that.


Right, Mental note, if someone dies in an airplane, you can never discuss it again or discuss whether or not simulation software can improve certain skills...  Ok, now I get it.

:huh :huh
--Kurt
Supreme Exalted Grand Pooh-bah Clown
Clowns of Death <Now Defunct>
'A pair of jokers beats a pair of aces'

Offline hubsonfire

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8658
A mental excercise
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2007, 08:39:08 AM »
I think they're missing the point, but it was an interesting discussion for a bit.
mook
++Blue Knights++

Proper punctuation and capitalization go a long way towards people paying attention to your posts.  -Stoney
I was wondering why I get ignored so often.  -Hitech

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
A mental excercise
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2007, 03:07:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I think they're missing the point, but it was an interesting discussion for a bit.
:)

Offline toonces3

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 799
A mental excercise
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2007, 04:36:52 PM »
A few thoughts:

I'm an ex-Navy P-3 pilot.  When I was going through flight school, both primary and intermediate, I flew MS Flight Simulator to death.  I never flew a plane before I started flight school, and I graduated at the top of my flight school class.  This was primarily because, having flown literally thousands of approaches in MSFS, many of the skills I need to know were resident somewhere in my brain, ie. understanding how to execute instrument procedures using only instruments, using approach plates to shoot approaches into missed approach into back localizer, etc, etc.

MSFS certainly didn't teach me to do a loop, fly form, or how to deal with an engine fire, but it did help me to tune my skills in other areas.  In short, there's simply no way you could say that flying the TACAN 13 into CRP 200 times on your home computer wouldn't help prepare you for the 'real thing' and I'm living proof of that.

So, to address this to the skills as a fighter pilot- I would say that the average AH'er would have a huge advantage over the typical WW2 pilot enlisting for a tour as a WW2 fighter pilot.

Again, there's a huge advantage to flying a thousand sorties against all sorts of virtual pilots and honing the basic skills of ACM.  But even more importantly, I think AH teaches skills like SA, energy management, etc.  Sure, there's a big neon sign over the planes in AH, but this is mostly a nod to the restriction of trying to model a 3 dimensional combat simulation on a very small computer screen.    Imagine how many rudimentary skills of flying one can learn from AH...simply getting used to the way your environment looks inverted, the monkey skills of stick, rudder, and throttle control, of judging relative motion and simple ACM tactics...the WW2 guy off the street couldn't imagine the things we take for granted.

Having said that, I think all the AH in the world only takes one so far, and by no means can you make the leap that being a great stick in AH means a great stick in real life.  However, I do think it's fair to say that, at least initially, the AH virtual pilot would have a huge advantage over his real world  buddies starting out.

Just my opinions.

Toonces out.
"And I got my  :rocklying problem fix but my voice is going to inplode your head" -Kennyhayes

"My thread is forum gold, it should be melted down, turned into minature f/a-18 fighter jets and handed out to everyone who participated." -Thrila

Offline Solar10

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
A mental excercise
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2007, 04:49:16 PM »
So as technology progresses and there are more and more unmanned military aircraft, are the players in this game good candidates for the 'next' air force?

If so, they had better build those planes to withstand multiple HOs.  :)
~Hells Angels~
Solar10

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
A mental excercise
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2007, 10:00:33 PM »
Quote
 Aside from the HO-N-GO newbies, almost every one of us would fare better than the average WW2 pilot.

uuummmmm........correct me if i'm wrong, but there's quite a few ""not so noobs"" that use the good ole ho-n-go

:D :D :confused:
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline ozrocker

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3640
A mental excercise
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2007, 05:04:10 AM »
Only this comes to mind. The scene from "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World"
When Buddy Hackett takes the controls, while Jim Baccus gets knocked out while making an "Old Fashion"  
                                                                 
                                                         

                                                 :rofl
                                                                  Oz
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 05:06:18 AM by ozrocker »
Flying and dying since Tour 29
The world is grown so bad. That wrens make prey where eagles dare not perch.- Shakespeare
 
30% Disabled Vet  US ARMY- 11C2H 2/32 AR. 3rd AD, 3/67AR. 2nd AD, 2/64 AR. 3rd ID, ABGD Command TRADOC, 1/16th INF. 1st ID