Author Topic: Beating a dead horse.....  (Read 2365 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Beating a dead horse.....
« on: May 13, 2007, 05:22:50 PM »
I know this conversation has been had many a time, and I considered just forgetting it, but decided I'd post on it after my experience in AvA last night.

When I think of AvA, I think of Oldman, and I think of JG54.  They represent the AvA to me.

Oldman is one of the class acts in the game and approaches it from much the same perspective as I do.  All he's looking for is a fair fight.  Living or dying doesn't matter nearly as much as the chance to test his skills against someone else.

TrueKill describes JG54 as the "Blacksheep" of the AvA, and I think that's said with a bit of pride for a lack of a better word.  Again, they are a very visible presence in regards to that arena.

I know my time in the AvA is very limited, but it's limited for a reason.  I keep being given reasons not to come back.

Two nights ago we had some decent fights for a time, before it became the race for alt and who could mug and pick the fastest.  The Spitaly comments when maybe 1 Spit was up while the rest were 38s and 40s.  The idea that "I'm gonna HO because of this" was the other bit that I just didn't get.

Last night I flew four flights in the AvA.  I got HO'd and then collided with by Storch.  No biggie, it happens.  But it was a sign of things to come.  The 109s all were perched at alt.  This was ironic to me because the excuse was because someone had done it to them before.  

Flight two was a 1 v 2 only to get HO'd by a 110 that dropped in while i was in with 2 109s.

Third flight same thing.  HO shot by a guy coming into the fight from on high.

Fourth was the kicker for me though.  1Duke! was 5K out front of me.  We were 3K tops and headed towards the other base.  I said to him, lets let them come out and not mess around in the ack.  Silly me.  As I said it, 3 planes dropped on Duke from on high.  They'd clearly been grabbing over their base.  I was too far to help and he got nailed by all three.  2 109s and a 110 vs his 38G.

I then had to deal with those three who had alt, E and numbers.  OK so be it.  If it's a decent fight, that's all good.  I don't mind dying.   But two more 109s came in with the lead guy HO'ing me and taking out my Ailerons.  I just sighed and waited for the 3 behind me to finish the job.

As 1Duke1 said, "Forget this.  It's just a mini-MA", which was true.   It wasn't about a good fight, it was about winning the fight as easily and quickly as possible.

All that being said, I understand it's their dime and they can fly as they choose.  I said on 200 that "I give.  If that's what the fight is in here, I might as well go back to LW".  

Storch asked me what I was giving.  I explained the above and got the same story about someone had done it to them earlier so they were just doing it back.

Then its the excuse of getting picked, Spitfires or whatever.

Again.  it's their dime, so be it.

But understand, the AvA will remain what it is, a sparsely populated arena as long as that's the attitude.  The guys who are there set the tone.  As long as it is what it is, folks might as well keep flying the other arenas where the numbers are better.

Personally I think it's too bad, as I do believe there are a lot of us who'd love to have a place to fly where it's about the fight, not always winning.  And I'm not talking about the perfect 1 v 1.  I like 1 v 2s etc, just for the challenge.  But to always have to fight higher, and numerically superior numbers, along with the HO shots at every turn, makes it kind of futile.

And to clarify the HO shots.  When you are getting bounced by a higher, faster plane, all you can do is turn your nose up to face the threat.  They control the fight as they have alt and E.  All the lower guy can do is try and counter it.  Getting HO'd that way gets real old fast.

Now, as I've said, my experience is limited in AvA so obviously my comments reflect that limited experience.  I don't think the JG54 guys are bad guys, or black sheep.  I do believe they could really change the tone in there if they chose to however.

Do with it what you will.

I hope it changes someday so folks like myself can find a reason to come back.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Larry

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 06:16:52 PM »
I remember the "I give". I saw a few 38s drop in on I think storc wilde and tbar while I was rolling. I then seeen you flying level so I went in and killed you (no one else was on you). As I said in the other posts when ever Jg54 does something"wrong" everyone hears about it and there are threads started whining about what we did. Again as I said before about the "spitaly". I said it after I sw more and more spits rolling, ad if you have played in the AvA as long as I have you KNOW any setup with spits in it will hve nothing but spits flying by the end of the week.

 I did say that Jg54 are and always will be the "blacksheep" of the AvA, but hey someone has to be the bad guys it might as well be the guys flying axis. Jg3 an its offshoot Jg54 were one of the squad that kept the CT/AvA alive for all these years. When we did the Thursday night missions and it was BoB week and JG5 fly Ju88s and 109Es vs. SpitVs and HurriIs and we got slaughtered. But the very next week it was Lancs and mossi vs. 110G and 109G10 and we had to drop it becuase of the "no fair" whines.

The allied fliers gang, HO, pick as much as we do, but the thing is we dont go whining on the BBS after we just roll and get payback.



You know my "spitaly" comment was wrong your right no one is flying spits this week. and they sure as hell arent ganging or useing "Jg54 tactics".


These are just from today.




Once known as ''TrueKill''.
JG 54 "Grünherz"
July '18 KOTH Winner


Offline Guppy35

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 06:24:37 PM »
Most definately a 'few 38s' was Duke and I and I was 5K behind him and 3 guys 'rolled in on him.

We had niether alt nor E as the 109s and 110 had.

So it goes.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Soulyss

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 06:35:19 PM »
it goes both ways... I don't really buy this the allies to this, the axis do that arguments.  I think my experiences today are a good example of what happens.  When I logged in the allies had a 2:1 advantage and the type count was 1 p38 in the stratosphere who wouldn't fight and the rest in spitV's with 1-2 of them in  a hurricane.  #'s were 6 axis, 11 allied.  

First off a couple people could have switched sides and evened things out.  But we (I was axis) were getting mauled soon as wheels came up spits were swooping in left and right.  It got really, really annoying.  As the afternoon  wore on gradually the #'s evened out and we pushed the fight back over their field.. hell I was so tired of chasing mr. strato 38 around when he tried to land his busted up plane I took him out.  Not normally something I would do (ok not normally something I would do in the AvA)  but I was tired and frustrated.  Anyone logging in @ that moment would have seen 2-3 spits hugging the ack while 3-4 109's orbiting the field picking them off.  I'm sure that person would have started HO-ing.. vulching... ganging you name it all because the "other guys" did it first, it's a never ending cycle of dweebery.


When I started this I had a point... now I forget what it was.....
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Offline Grits

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 06:44:16 PM »
A couple of comments:

A. Oldman is nuts.

B. Duke is the best bai...errr...wingman in the AvA

C. This is an old story and why I dont fly the AvA the rare times I fly AH these days.

storch

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2007, 10:39:07 PM »
yes dan and I also apologized about the ram incident only to be lectured by you after your initial it's "ok I got another free plane".  I get preached to on sundays and I ignore that as well.  save your handwringing sermons for someone whom you might be better able to influence.

prior to your arrival and pouty exit we were subjected to endless HOing and picking from sondog, okllok and kronoes in stratohurriIIcs to the point where the gloves came off on our side.  you came into a stirred hornet's nest of aggressive luftwhiners.

however in my opinion this is the real situation in this backwater of an arena.  as long as the mostly absent managers of the AvA sponsor these types of setups that type of gameplay which we all agree we dislike will be engendered ad nauseum ad infinitum.

a few threads back some AvA staffer suggested I offer ideas.  in that spirit here's an idea.

keep the setups to to two or three different fighter types per side.  never should the hurriIIc be included and the spitfires only sparingly.  the endless array of good and capable types offered on the allied side but with the inclusion of the HurriIIc/spitfire is tantamount to a hurriIIc/spitfire allied ack huggers engaging in annoying MA tactics and thats about it.

if this weeks setup were mine to decide it would have been as follows.

202
205 at back bases
109G2
109G6 at back bases

P40E
P51B
P38G

that would be the basis for an extremely competetive week and you would probably draw a better player/participant than the score conscious lot we see in the arena of late.

The hurriIIc only draws the lazy and gamey to it's usage, it should be eschewed in the AvA.

just my .02

carry on with your JG54 bashing if we tire of it we'll withdraw for a few more months until you guys start begging our return....again.

Offline E25280

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2007, 10:50:24 PM »
I think bottom line we have about half "fair fighters" and half "thugs."

After getting "thugged" about a while, frustration builds on the "fair fighters" who resort to thuggery in return.

Once the thug switch is tripped, there is no returning to the "fair fight" attitude.

"We were ganged by Spits, so we gang 38s in return."  :huh  

"BnZ 190s HOed me, so I HOed every C202 I saw" :huh  

It is just an unfortunate truth that the thugs will win out every time, because the return-thuggery always seems to be indiscriminant.
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Offline Guppy35

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 11:37:01 PM »
Storch

So if I do it because they did it to me first is the rallying cry, then things will never change.

I sure wasn't in a strato IIc, I was in a 38G.  I was lower on every occasion.  I said clearly that I wasn't going to HO.  It's not hard to check the roster with so few people to see who you are flying against.

None of the names you mentioned as having been HO'ing and ganging were on at that point.  Two of your own guys were flying Allied out of 4 of us in the air, with Me an 1Duke1 being the others.

I'm hard pressed to see how you being pissed at someone from earlier translates to HO'ing guys flying lower then you in 38s when your beef seems to be with Hurri IIcs and Spits up high.

The logic escapes me.

As Oldman reiterated on the other thread.  The only way this stuff changes is if the vets don't get sucked into that kind of MA garbage so that the AvA can be something different then a mini-MA.

I don't know how else to say it.  And Storch, like it or not, your guys have had a large impact on the AvA mentality and can change it for the better by setting a different tone.

You keep finding excuses to not do it though, whether it be the planes aren't the way you like it or somehow someone has done you wrong so you are going to do it back to everyone else.

Do you have any desire for the AvA to be anything different then a mini-MA?

If so, what are you willing to do with your guys to help change it?
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Larry

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 11:42:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
If so, what are you willing to do with your guys to help change it?


I say nothing but thats just me. I'm ganna fly what I want when I want how I want. Untill you pay my $16 I'm ganna be the biggest thorn in your side. I was telling storch erlier Im ganna fly allied easy moders for a while to show you guys what we have to deal with mabey then you'll know where we are coming from.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 11:45:41 PM by Larry »
Once known as ''TrueKill''.
JG 54 "Grünherz"
July '18 KOTH Winner


storch

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 11:47:04 PM »
oh lord.

Offline Guppy35

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 11:50:33 PM »
That's what i figured the answer would be :)

And it's your choice as you are correct.  It's your dime.

And Larry/TK, give em hell.  Shoot em all down in easy mode birds.  Feel free to torment us all :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Larry

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 11:51:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
That's what i figured the answer would be :)

And it's your choice as you are correct.  It's your dime.

And Larry/TK, give em hell.  Shoot em all down in easy mode birds.  Feel free to torment us all :)



Oh I will. Ill be the l33t3st woobiecane and spitfart p1l0t in the AvA.
Once known as ''TrueKill''.
JG 54 "Grünherz"
July '18 KOTH Winner


Offline Guppy35

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 11:53:28 PM »
LOL fair enough.  I'll be in a low 109G6 just to give you an easy target
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Larry

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 11:54:45 PM »
Just to get this right. Is it a good or bad thing to fly as a squad useing "squad tactics" in the AvA? I'v been seeing alot about "we've been trying to get more people and squads to fly in the AvA..." So should we only fly as a squad when other squads are on?
Once known as ''TrueKill''.
JG 54 "Grünherz"
July '18 KOTH Winner


Offline Larry

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Beating a dead horse.....
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 11:56:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
LOL fair enough.  I'll be in a low 109G6 just to give you an easy target


Okay Ill be at 35K gasping for air in my spit seeing if I can get to mach 3 when I dive in on you while you're fighting a P38.
Once known as ''TrueKill''.
JG 54 "Grünherz"
July '18 KOTH Winner