Author Topic: Swords  (Read 2607 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2007, 08:01:43 AM »
won't you look kinda silly walking around with a sword?

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Offline Odee

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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2007, 08:22:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
won't you look kinda silly walking around with a sword?

lazs
'tis better thing that people make a wide path around your silly looking self, than to be accosted and relieved of your coin purse.

Guns are a dime a dozen, but you don't have to reload a sword.
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Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2007, 08:28:43 AM »
Laz, until you've walked around with a sword at your belt (and preferably a cape fluttering behind you) you really don't know the feel of 6' tall and bulletproof.

There is just something about having 3 feet of sharp steel hanging at your side.

No you wouldn't want to bring it to a gun fight.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2007, 08:29:57 AM »
Quote
The Deliverator never pulled that gun in anger, or in fear. He pulled it once in Gila Highlands. Some punks in Gila Highlands, a fancy Burbclave, wanted themselves a delivery, and they didn't want to pay for it. Thought they would impress the Deliverator with a baseball bat. The Deliverator took out his gun, centered its laser doo-hickey on that poised Louisville Slugger, fired it. The recoil was immense, as though the weapon had blown up in his hand. The middle third of the baseball bat turned into a column of burning sawdust accelerating in all directions like a bursting star. Punk ended up holding this bat handle with milky smoke pouring out the end. Stupid look on his face. Didn't get nothing but trouble from the Deliverator.

Since then the Deliverator has kept the gun in the glove compartment and relied, instead, on a matched set of samurai swords, which have always been his weapon of choice anyhow. The punks in Gila Highlands weren't afraid of the gun, so the Deliverator was forced to use it. But swords need no demonstrations.

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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2007, 08:46:49 AM »
ghost... I am 6' tall.

odee..  I recon that before I run out of bullets that there will be plenty of swords laying around for me to pick up if I really want one.

The only people I have ever seen with a sword strapped on were those fair guys and they just looked.... gay.

swords are good fantasy fun but... while the movie "blade" and silly snowcrash book work good on a set or in the imagination...

Truth is that if we seen one of those characters on the street walking around we would laugh our butts off.

lazs

Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2007, 09:40:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
ghost... I am 6' tall.

odee..  I recon that before I run out of bullets that there will be plenty of swords laying around for me to pick up if I really want one.

The only people I have ever seen with a sword strapped on were those fair guys and they just looked.... gay.

swords are good fantasy fun but... while the movie "blade" and silly snowcrash book work good on a set or in the imagination...

Truth is that if we seen one of those characters on the street walking around we would laugh our butts off.

lazs



well, you're not exactly going to walk around with a sword, you'd get shot by police, but it's a real pleasure to hold a nice sword, and to own one. i've messed around with guns before, and i promise you, there is nothing that delivers a sense of power more than a sword. it's like wearing a nice ring on your finger, it immediately gives you a sense of grandeur.

you don't buy a sword to look cool, you buy a sword because you want to. you buy a gun for fun/protection, but nothing matches owning a beautifully crafted, real sword.

and if you really know how to use it, it can be a lot of fun sparring with a re-enactment sword, not to mention the conan the barbarian arms you get when you swing a 3 pound length of steel around for an hour :D




fantasy swords are ghey. the guys who buy cheap swords with little devils and crazy blade shapes all over them. you do nothing with them apart from stare at their uselessness, but a real sword on the wall, one that you pick up and defend yourself with if need be is awesome.

someone quoted an article up above which i find quite true. if you have a gun, it's unlikely that you'll shoot someone dead unless you have to, and petty theives know that, but if you pick a big sword up and start swinging, they're gonna run, fast...

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Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2007, 10:07:54 AM »
oh and yeah lazs, i'm 6'1" and used to row and play rugby, amongst weight training at school, so i'm fairly well built. a sword however makes you feel so much more powerful. it's so much more graceful that pointing a gun around. any dweeb and point and shoot, but it takes a real man to use a sword to good effect. it's just so much cooler (granted i can't own anything other than a shooting shotgun and smallbore rifles here in the UK)

go to a nice store and find a good quality sword, pick it up and swing it about a bit, and tell me you didn't come out of the store witha  big grin ;)

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Offline Suave

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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2007, 02:25:36 PM »
Yeah but what if the thief makes his savings throw ?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2007, 02:28:37 PM »
I own two swords..  well... one is just a 30" bayonet circa 1700's...  The other is a small cutlass with a basket hilt from the civil war era.

I would dispute your claim that anyone can "point and shoot" a gun effectively.   I would have you handle some of the firearms I have and not walk away with a big grin.   the heft of a 44 mag revolver is very confidence inspiring.

To know that you can draw and point shoot at close range or hit a 5 gallon bucket out to 300 yards or so is confidence inspiring.   You can also walk around with one and not make a spectacle of yourself.

lazs

Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2007, 03:14:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I own two swords..  well... one is just a 30" bayonet circa 1700's...  The other is a small cutlass with a basket hilt from the civil war era.

I would dispute your claim that anyone can "point and shoot" a gun effectively.   I would have you handle some of the firearms I have and not walk away with a big grin.   the heft of a 44 mag revolver is very confidence inspiring.

To know that you can draw and point shoot at close range or hit a 5 gallon bucket out to 300 yards or so is confidence inspiring.   You can also walk around with one and not make a spectacle of yourself.

lazs




true. i've fired a lot of stuff in my visits to the states, high cal revolovers rifles and machine guns etc. one crazy dude in nevada even offered to let me shoot an RPG at an old car out on a ranch for $1000 :lol i'm a good shot though, have been shooting rifles and things since i was a kiddo. i'm reminded of the indiana jones scene :D

seriously though, there isn't any gun that can rival a nice sword for class and wow factor apart from an beautiful old beretta over & under :p

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Offline 68Hawk

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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2007, 03:26:09 PM »
Lazs has a good point to not bring a knife to a gunfight.

Still, the study of the sword is as important to our understanding of history as is the study of the gun.  

I wouldn't count it as a carrying weapon for personal defense, but if any of my neighbors are ever getting harassed it gives me an extra layer of something to bring to the problem.  I could get in big trouble for bringing a rifle on someone who is technically unarmed, even if they're 8 ft tall.  

First choice is actually my Sai, as they are purely a defensive weapon and, without being a sharp weapon I can easily claim that they were not for bringing deadly force.  It's a little harder to subdue with a blade.

Lazs is also right that firearms take lots of practice too, and are not as easy as many people like to believe.  In terms of feelings of security, a nice .45 would make me feel better than having a sword, but it still can't beat the sense of history, the sense of mysticism, and the sense of heritage that an ancient implement carries with it.

Don't need a permit to carry a sword though, at least not in CO.  Actually got one of mine into the bar a couple years ago on Halloween.  Take a guess how many chicks asked me, "is that real," "yes" "can I see it?" "no".   Like I'm going to draw it in the middle of a bar.  My gunstock warclub tends to get the same effect.
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2007, 03:28:52 PM »
[size=10]BEHOLD THE SWORD OF POWER! BEHOLD THE SWORD OF KAR'E'HANA'A'A'AH!!!![/SIZE]
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Offline indy007

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« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2007, 03:30:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Major Biggles
seriously though, there isn't any gun that can rival a nice sword for class and wow factor apart from an beautiful old beretta over & under :p


Humbug to that. There's some sweet pistols out there.




Offline 68Hawk

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« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2007, 04:03:00 PM »
ink,

Sorry man but I gotta call you out, because I think you're buying into a couple myths about Samurai.

The Katana is one of the finest achievements in sword making, but it is not the greatest in every respect.  Remember that every weapon is a tool, and every tool is designed with a specific purpose.  No tool can serve every purpose.

Japan has relatively little iron ore deposits, and what it has is largely of a lesser quality than can be found through mining or trade on the continental block of the old world.  This is one of the reasons why Japanese armor never went over to full plate like in Europe, but remained more a composite of wood, bone, leather, some metal, and other things.  It also left them lighter and more mobile, contributing to their difference of style from European heavy combat.  

The truly awesome achievement of the Katana was to create such an amazing sword from such awful material stocks.  For sharpness I would probably agree that it is unmatched, but then again the chromium edged swords they just pulled out of that tomb in china are still sharp today.  One must remember at this point that most technological and much cultural development in Japan was taken from China.  One can even find this evident in the multiple translations of "Kara-te", which I'm told can mean either "empty hands" or "Chinese hands", Chinese in this case being synonymous with 'good'.  Don't quote me on the translation though.

Would this blade have been able to stand up to the plate armor of Europe?  I don't know.  I've never seen anyone swing one against armor before.  Late medieval European swords mostly began to take the shape of long thrusting blades, something the Katana does well but not excellently.  If not long thrusting, European weapons went a little more towards crushing, like maces and such.  I can't see a Katana fracturing good plate armor, or punching through it like a war hammer.  Getting a Katana in the chinks of good armor might be hard.  But would a fully armored, visored Knight be able to even hit a bouncing Samurai?  

This leads us to compare the skill sets and fighting styles of the two worlds.  It is often problematic to draw parallels with feudal Europe and 'feudal' Japan.
Still, both Nobles(as opposed to just knights) in Europe and Samurai in Japan represent the upper class rulers of society.  Aristocrat=Samurai, not Knight=Samurai.  Both respective classes got their start as a military class, but depending on what time period you're talking about for both they might not all be warriors.  Many Samurai later on in Tokugawa Japan were more administrators and bureaucrats than anything else, and though allowed to wear swords could not be considered expert swordsmen.  Same goes for Europe at varying times.  One of the few good points about The Last Samurai is that it shows the less martial minded coming out on top of the Meiji Restoration when the martial class itself was abolished.  

And what of skills?  While the well trained Samurai were certainly masters of their domain, so too were the European warriors.  Anyone who sits around all day training for battle is going to get pretty good at it.  This also explains the predominance of professional military forces today.  There are some interesting Italian unarmed fighting styles whose names escape me that even have a lot of parallel with Jujitsu and some of the Eastern styles.  

In short, put two good warriors in a room and you should sell tickets.  It would come down to the two individuals, and maybe just to one crucial mistake.  Kinda like a dogfight?  

Remember too that Iaido is the specific discipline of the draw-cut-return that you describe, and wouldn't necessarily have been practiced by everyone.  If known, it was more a reaction to an attack, and not a state to be seen as prepared for battle.  A Samurai probably would have drawn his sword before engaging if given the chance.  I do love that one Kurosawa scene in Seven Samurai though.  

Now if only I could find time to lean to use mine better.  :aok
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Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2007, 04:22:35 PM »
great post hawk.

hawk is very right ink, i highly doubt a kat could do much to a fully armoured european knight. in the early medieval period, european and viking swords were wide, flat and very sharp, with long fullers, designed for slashing and cutting. they may not have had the perfected edge of the differentialy high treated katanas (which didn't properly exist at this point in time, 10/11 century), but they were very similar in style.

the katanas started out much like the double edged chinese swords of the time and developed into differentialy heat treated curved blades designed specifically for a powerful cut, which could cut through the relatively weak japanese armour.

this evolution was the opposite in europe. the swords slowly went from broad cutting blades to much longer 1 1/2 handed war swords with less of a fuller, a thinner blade, and a much sharper tip, with a much stronger distal taper. this was to piece the highly advanced armour of the time. as soldiers began to wear chain mail as standard, the swords began to concentrate on strong points to piece it, while keeping their cutting ability.

when full plate came along swords become long thin, and were far more pointy, with much less of an emphasis on edge. this of course culminated in the predecessor of the rapier, which them became a duelling thing.





the two are very different fighting styles. the japanese focused highly on honourable 1 on 1 duels of master swordsmanship. whoever won the swordfight would overcome the relatively weak armour (leather and cloth with iron plates and scales over vital areas).

in europe, especially after the age of chivalry went into decline, the emphasis was on killing your foe quickly, piercing armour with warhammers, war swords, bodkin arrowheads etc.

if you put the two in a fight my money would be on the knight, as his armour would protect from the slashing attack of the katana.

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