Author Topic: WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov vs Jumo  (Read 32952 times)

Offline Charge

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #165 on: June 12, 2007, 05:49:10 AM »
People should really read the NACA report I posted in the first page of this thread. It is about the effects of different charging methods.

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Offline Viking

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #166 on: June 12, 2007, 06:00:56 AM »
It is a good introduction to the different charging methods, and I've had the document for some time (don't know who posted it first, maybe it was you). However I'm afraid that some people will not learn because it goes against what they believe and want to be true.

Offline joeblogs

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #167 on: June 12, 2007, 06:43:06 AM »
The two stage supercharger on the Merlin 60 and subsequent models was gear driven, not exhaust driven. RR may have experimented with turbo compounding but the certainly did not get it into production during the war.

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Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
The supercharger of the two stage supercharger merlin afaik did use the exhaust thrust and didnt left much, while the DB supercharger did not.
...
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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about supercharging, and intercooling
« Reply #168 on: June 12, 2007, 07:18:18 AM »
Crankshaft driven centrifugal superchargers are not driven or even augmented by exhaust thrust. Any exhaust driven supercharger is either a turbine or a turbocharger. There are various forms of compound supercharging, where different types of superchargers are combined on the same engine, most commonly when some form of crank driven supercharger is combined with a turbocharger.

Crankshaft driven superchargers are tuned for various boost levels by size and drive ratio, they do not normally have any sort of dump valve, but normally have what is called a "pop off valve", intended to vent excess pressure, usually caused by a back fire. Crankshaft driven centrifugal superchargers are somewhat similar in design to turbochargers, except they have no exhaust turbine side to drive them, as they are driven by the crankshaft through a coupling and gearbox. It is necessary to spin a centrifugal supercharger at very high speeds, often in excess of 5 times the engine speed or more, because they are not positive displacement and therefore leak inside. Usually, the drive is a combination of ball bearings and planetary gears, to allow for over speed and for slippage.

The other common form of crankshaft driven supercharger is the positive displacement type, the most common version of the positive displacement supercharger is the Roots style, commonly seen on Detroit Diesel engines (first used for this by GMC trucks). This supercharger is rarely if ever seen on anything but older Detroit Diesel engines, and race engines such as drag racing or truck and tractor pulling. The ratio between the crankshaft and the supercharger is fixed, as opposed to variable. The boost is determined by drive ratio and supercharger size. They are rarely driven any more than twice the engine speed.

A turbocharger is similar to the centrifugal crank driven supercharger, but uses an exhaust turbine inside a housing to drive the compressor side. It is on the exhaust side of a turbocharger where you find a dump valve used to control boost, it is called a waste gate. When a turbocharger reaches a certain level of boost on the compressor side, the waste gate gate is opened, allowing exhaust to bypass the turbine, and slowing the turbocharger down to produce less boost. In the case of the General Electric B series turbochargers used on the Allison in the P-38, and the P&W in the P-47, as well as on some bombers, the waste gate also controls turbocharger speed, as at very high altitudes, where there is too little air to produce full boost, the turbocharger, without the load of producing full boost, will over speed. This happens around 33,000 to 35,000 feet. The waste gate on a General Electric B series turbocharger is actually controlled by an RPM governor, and actuated by oil pressure. The P-38 and P-47 had RPM indicator lights on the instrument panel so the pilot could see if he was exceeding the RPM limit. On the P-38, pilots sometimes failed to keep the engine temperatures in the correct operating range, and if the oil got too cold it would congeal, and the governor would not work, allowing the turbocharger to over speed or over pressurize.

Most high end endurance type superchargers are coupled with some sort of intercooler, since compressing air, especially enough to make serious horsepower, heats it a great deal, leading to inefficiency and detonation. Most intercoolers are "core" type, AKA heat exchanger, as seen on the K model and later P-38, and similar in construction to a radiator or oil cooler. They can be either air to air or air to liquid. Air to air types are common in aircraft, as the cooler air of high altitudes allows them to be fairly efficient. Efficiency is determined by the amount restriction they create (pressure drop across the intercooler) and the amount they lower the air temperature. A 100% efficient intercooler (very rare) will not lose any boost, the pressure before the intercooler and the pressure after the intercooler are the same, and it will lower the air charge temperature back to the ambient air temperature, the temperature the air was before the supercharger compressed it. Properly sized intercoolers are close to 100% efficient with regards to restriction, and around 50% efficient on cooling (lowers the compressed air temperature to a point half way between the temperature of the compressed air out of the supercharger and and the ambient air temperature before it is compressed).
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Offline gripen

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #169 on: June 12, 2007, 07:30:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
I think you exaggerate a bit, or don’t understand the workings of a supercharger. A conventional supercharger like the one on the Merlin produces a lot of overpressure at altitudes below the FTH of each stage.


Below 1st FTH the hydraulic coupling works as a fixed speed supercharger so up to this altitude there is no advantage but some disadvantage due higher losses of the hydraulic coupling and also due to power needed to run second oil pump.

Between 1st and 2nd FTH hydraulic coupling has an advantage when the second oil pump starts to increase speed of the supercharger. However, in the case of the DB, supercharger still does some overpressure because the speed of the supercharger is not adjusted according to MAP but simple barometric valve. In practice some of the theoretical advantage is lost due to this. Note that the throttle valve was located after the supercharger so the losses due to throttling were higher than in the case where the valve is before supercharger (in the L series DBs this was fixed using the spin valve before the supercharger).

Above 2nd FTH the hydraulic coupling works as a fixed speed supercharger again so there is no advantage but some disadvantage again due to higher losses of the hydraulic coupling.

Offline joeblogs

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #170 on: June 12, 2007, 07:39:19 AM »
I am not sure I follow this.

My impression was there was only 1 full thottle height as their was only 1 stage, but a continuously variable speed.

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Below 1st FTH the hydraulic coupling works as a fixed speed supercharger so up to this altitude there is no advantage but some disadvantage due higher losses of the hydraulic coupling and also due to power needed to run second oil pump.

Between 1st and 2nd FTH hydraulic coupling has an advantage when the second oil pump starts to increase speed of the supercharger. However, in the case of the DB, supercharger still does some overpressure because the speed of the supercharger is not adjusted according to MAP but simple barometric valve. In practice some of the theoretical advantage is lost due to this. Note that the throttle valve was located after the supercharger so the losses due to throttling were higher than in the case where the valve is before supercharger (in the L series DBs this was fixed using the spin valve before the supercharger).

Above 2nd FTH the hydraulic coupling works as a fixed speed supercharger again so there is no advantage but some disadvantage again due to higher losses of the hydraulic coupling.

Offline joeblogs

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Re: about supercharging, and intercooling
« Reply #171 on: June 12, 2007, 07:42:34 AM »
Nice summary Virgil.

I have two qualifcations. First most engines fitted with a turbo supercharger will have a single stage, single speed, gear-driven supercharger as well. It's purpose is essentially to ensure a good fuel mixture. It does not develop very high manifold pressures, since that is the job of the turbo.

Second, on the turbo-compond engines, some of the power from the turbine is returned to the drive shaft rather than being used to push air into the engine. Wright developed these after the war, as did some of the Russian design bureaus.

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Offline gripen

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #172 on: June 12, 2007, 07:58:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by joeblogs
I am not sure I follow this.

My impression was there was only 1 full thottle height as their was only 1 stage, but a continuously variable speed.


The 1st FTH is the altitude where the hydraulic coupling starts to increase the speed of the supercharger with second oil pump. Below this altitude it works like fixed speed unit because the slip of the drive was constant ie the supercharger used constant oil flow from the first oil pump.

In other words the DB supercharger was variable speed unit only at certain altitude range; between the altitude where the second oil pump started increase the speed of the supercharger and where the supercharger reached peak speed.

Offline joeblogs

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #173 on: June 12, 2007, 08:05:41 AM »
Ok so below FTH 1, the only variable is the Throttle. Above this, is the throttle wide open, but the rotational speed of the supercharger increasing?

-Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by gripen
The 1st FTH is the altitude where the hydraulic coupling starts to increase the speed of the supercharger with second oil pump. Below this altitude it works like fixed speed unit because the slip of the drive was constant ie the supercharger used constant oil flow from the first oil pump.

In other words the DB supercharger was variable speed unit only at certain altitude range; between the altitude where the second oil pump started increase the speed of the supercharger and where the supercharger reached peak speed.

Offline gripen

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #174 on: June 12, 2007, 08:17:29 AM »
Here is chart which helps to understand the issue. It's a DB 601 chart but the principle is the same. Up to 1st FTH (2100m), it works like a fixed speed unit. Between 1st FTH and 2nd FTH (5500m with 1,35ata and 2600rpm) it works like a variable speed unit. Above that it's a fixed speed unit again. If you compare that to the DVL supercharger in the NACA report, you will find out that the DBs were far from the ideal case.
 


Offline joeblogs

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« Reply #175 on: June 12, 2007, 08:36:20 AM »
What are the parallel lines on the right hand side of the chart?

There is some variation in another parameter, but I know too little German to figure it out.

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Here is chart which helps to understand the issue. It's a DB 601 chart but the principle is the same. Up to 1st FTH (2100m), it works like a fixed speed unit. Between 1st FTH and 2nd FTH (5500m with 1,35ata and 2600rpm) it works like a variable speed unit. Above that it's a fixed speed unit again. If you compare that to the DVL supercharger in the NACA report, you will find out that the DBs were far from the ideal case.
 

Offline gripen

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #176 on: June 12, 2007, 08:40:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by joeblogs
What are the parallel lines on the right hand side of the chart?


Stau = Dynamic pressure (RAM)

Offline Viking

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #177 on: June 12, 2007, 08:44:07 AM »
Errata: The FTH i have stated for the Merlin V-1650-7 of the P-51D is actually that of the V-1650-3 of the P-51B. The correct FTH's of the -7 is 7,000 feet (1st stage) and 18,000 feel (2ns stage). For comparison the FTH's of the Merlin 70 is 11,900 feet (1st stage) and 24,700 (second stage).

The DB 605AS(M) with a FTH of 7,9 km (~26,000 feet) has a higher FTH than all these Merlins.


Quote
Originally posted by Viking
The DB 603L and 605L were designed for very high altitudes. The DB's already had a supercharger with a similar FTH to that of the two stage supercharged Merlins. The DB supercharger design was unique in that it was a step-less, variable speed design using a hydraulic converter to adjust the impeller speed according to altitude and engine boost. To put it in car terms the Merlin had a manual two speed gear box, while the DB a one speed automatic with roughly the same gear ratio as the Merlin’s high-gear. Using the DB 603's bigger supercharger on the DB 605 (known as the AS versions) gave the engine a FTH of more than 26,000 feet which is roughly equal to the two stage Merlins.


Quote
Originally posted by Viking
The RR Merlin 68/ Packard Merlin V-1650-7 used by the P-51D. This engine has a FTH of 25,800 feet where it produces 1210 hp.

The DB 605AS using B4 fuel and no MW50 has a FTH of 26,200 feet (8 km) where it produces 1200 hp.

These two engines are for all intents and purposes identical in performance. Only difference being the different approach to supercharging. RR with its two-stage blower and the DB with its single-stage variable-speed blower.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Re: about supercharging, and intercooling
« Reply #178 on: June 12, 2007, 08:45:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by joeblogs
Nice summary Virgil.

I have two qualifcations. First most engines fitted with a turbo supercharger will have a single stage, single speed, gear-driven supercharger as well. It's purpose is essentially to ensure a good fuel mixture. It does not develop very high manifold pressures, since that is the job of the turbo.

Second, on the turbo-compond engines, some of the power from the turbine is returned to the drive shaft rather than being used to push air into the engine. Wright developed these after the war, as did some of the Russian design bureaus.

-Blogs


Yes, aircraft engines equipped with turbochargers will often have a crankshaft driven supercharger as well. It is actually necessary to provide boost at lower RPM and lower throttle settings as well. The same engines are often built with compression ratios of 7:1 or less. A turbocharger will only create boost under a good load, and at cruise on a high performance aircraft engine it is actually the supercharger that provides a lot of the boost, because there isn't a heavy load on the engine, nor is it at higher RPM, so there isn't enough volumes of exhaust gas to drive the turbocharger to create boost. The supercharger also creates boost when the throttles are opened quickly, creating initial acceleration, and exhaust gas to spool the turbo up.

Yes, the turbo-compound engines also use the turbine to drive the engine itself. Allison actually built a real monster based on the original V-1710 design, that made over 3400HP at the shaft. The engine and supercharging system worked fine, they had a problem with the exhaust manifold temperature, that was the only real drawback.
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Offline joeblogs

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WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov
« Reply #179 on: June 12, 2007, 08:45:52 AM »
so variation in RAM air can move the 2nd FTH up to 3km?

-Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Stau = Dynamic pressure (RAM)