Originally posted by gripen
Hm... There has been several theories why the Allisons were so unreliable at high altitudes. Anyway, high altitude problems were not limited in ETO, there were similar issues with the F-5s in the MTO (see America's 100000) so fuel theory can be rejected quite easily (there were no Js before summer). IIRC Tony Levier blew something like 30 Allisons during summer 1944 when trying to solve the problem so the problem was there and apparently never fully solved because P-38s were not tried again in the high altitude operations.
Actually it did in the G-series Allisons, see the "Vee's for Victory".
There were problems in the beginning; the P-51B was rushed in the service due desperate need. However, the problems were soon solved, IIRC one P-38/P-51 pilot once said: "I have landed P-38 one engine running several times but I have allways landed P-51 one engine running".
I'm not aware of Levier blowing 30 engines, and especially not during the summer of 1944. I have no idea where you got that. In fact, after Levier came to England, the engine failures were greatly reduced, as was fuel consumption. Funny you should bring up Levier, in fact. It was Levier who solved the problems with burned valves, runaway turbochargers, excessive fuel consumption, and performance at high altitude. Suggest you read "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" by Warren Bodie, and the other version by Steve Pace. They have Levier's reports on operational issues from his tour of the 8th AF, and the causes thereof. The causes thereof happen to be: incorrect fuel mixture setting at cruise, incorrect prop pitch settings at cruise, improper adjustment of the turbocharger oil regulators and waste gate, and irregular fuel quality. After proper instruction of both the pilots and crews, pilots who had been returning from missions on one engine and with 10 gallons of fuel were returning with two healthy engines and as much as 100 gallons of fuel.
A perfect example would be Lt. Loenhert's P-38, "California Cutie" which flew some
300hours of combat on
one pair of Allisons. The ones that came with the plane.
After Levier's tour, the P-38's DID in fact fly full high altitude missions in escort of the bombers. The P-51 DID NOT replace the P-38, or even equal it in numbers, until APRIL 1944. Only AFTER the P-51 reached numerical parity with the P-38 were the P-38 units completely relieved of escort duty, and released to ground attack. And the P-38 was in fact the first U.S. fighter over Berlin, and in numbers. BOTH the 20th AND the 55th made it to Berlin before a P-51 unit even came close.
The ORIGINAL V-1710 Allison had around 6:1 compression. They varied between 6:1 and 6.6:1 more or less. It was designed to be supercharged. It was ALWAYS supercharged, and had low static compression. The F series in the P-38 had 6.5:1 compression.
I hate to break this to you, but the P-38J-1-Lo entered service with the 8th AF in
NOVEMBER of 1943. The P-38J, in all versions from J-1-Lo to J-25-Lo served with the 8th AF from November 1943 to July 1944. The P-38L entered service in July 1944, although most, but not all squadrons switched to the P-51 instead. Some squadrons in the ETO did not switch.
The Merlin was already
supposedly a proven high altitude engine,
supposedly superior to the Allison, and in service over Europe for over 3 years before an Allison equipped P-38 even arrived. But in late 43 and early 44, more than 3 YEARS after they entered combat service, they evidently weren't so superior or proven, since they blew up in P-51's on a regular basis.
Oh, and the Allison equipped P-38's were rushed into service before the P-51's, with FAR less operational training and indoctrination, with FAR fewer experienced combat pilots and officers. The 20th and 55th were rushed into service after "Black Thursday", a lot sooner than the P-51 units, and in a bigger hurry. So that excuse doesn't wash for the P-51. They had more time to go operational, and the
supposedly superior engine had already BEEN in operation at high altitude over Europe for 3 years.
Yes, many P-38's returned on one engine. But P-51's that lost one engine NEVER returned at all.
If you want to quote pilots, I'll quote one for you, and give you his name. Captain Arthur Heiden, flight leader, 79th FS, 20th FG.
From Captain Heiden, who flew BOTh the P-38 and the P-51:
"P-38 units from the moment of going on initial operational status were committed to MAX EFFORT. No two ways about it. No time to shake things out, to discover your problems. You got there and zap, you were in up to your eyeballs. This meant that everything flyable went and everything that still had wings would be made flyable. No matter what. This in effect was the same as demanding, by direct order, that everyone and everything must have, immediately if not sooner, 100 percent combat capabilities. Like Casey Jones, the pressure was all the way up without any margins whatsoever."
"Despite these revolting developments, the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could outturn, outclimb, outrun and outfight anybody's airplane in the air so they set about rectifying their problems."And:
"Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better."On the P-51:
"The P-51 was a new airplane and we were eager to fly it and were happy with it. It was so easy and comfortable to fly. The P-38 had kept us on our toes and constantly busy--far more critical to fly. You never could relax with it. We were disappointed with the 51's rate of climb and concerned with the reverse stick, especially if fuel was in the fuselage tank, the rash of rough engines from fouled plugs, and cracked heads which dumped the coolant. With the 38 you could be at altitude before landfall over the continent, but with the 51 you still had a lot of climbing yet to do. The 38 was an interceptor and if both engines (were healthy), you could outclimb any other airplane, and that's what wins dog fights. When you are in a dog fight below tree tops, it is way more comfortable in a 38 with its power and stall characteristics and, for that matter at any altitude."Finally:
"Feb 44 we went back to Schwienfurt with acceptable loses. March 3rd the 20th & 55thFGs went to Berlin--Bombers were recalled. March, April, and May brought vicious battles, often with heavy loses. However, Germany were throwing their valuable flight instructors and 100hr students in to the battle. The Luftwaffe was at last starting to die."
"The 8th was, at last, being flooded with Mustangs and well trained pilots. The Mustang was a delight to fly, easier to maintain cheaper to build and train pilots for, and had long legs. In those respects you can rightfully call it better, but it could not do anything better than a P-38J-25 or L. Just remember who took the war to the enemy and held on under inconceivable odds. Enough of the crap." Note
The above quotes from Captain Arthur Heiden, from Dr. Carlo Kopp's article "Der Gabelschwanz Tuefel", at C. C. Jordan's "Planes and Pilot's of World War II".
