Author Topic: What WW2 ace do you look up to? (Read 12899 times)

-SR- · « **Reply #120 on:** May 30, 2007, 06:50:56 PM »

Pappy Boyington.

-SR-:aok

Widewing · « **Reply #121 on:** May 30, 2007, 07:10:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Treize69
Theres three I look up to most. Each in a different air force.

USAAF, Duane Beeson of the 4th FG; 17.333 a2a, 21 total. Would have beaten Rickenbackers record before Gentile (and had many more of them A2A) if he hadn't been downed by flak on one of the "Jackpot" missions in April '44. Had 21 when he went down and his kills before getting hit put him in the temporary lead in the 8th AAF.

Beeson was a fine fighter pilot and a natural leader. He's one of my favorites.

Let me toss out a bit of history though......

Neither Beeson or Gentile were close to Rickenbacker when their war ended. Ground kills didn't count towards beating Rickenbacker, only air kills.

On March 15th, Bob Johnson led all 8th AF pilots with 22 kills. By April 13th, he had 25 kills. On May 8th, 1944 he shot down two more for a total of 27. Johnson was the first to beat Rickenbacker (26 kills). He was promptly sent home.

Prior to all of the above, Walter Beckham was the leading ace in the 8th AF with 18 kills when he went down to flak on February 22nd, 1944.

Beckham had 18 kills after 57 sorties (.315 kills per sortie)
Johnson had 27 kills after 91 sorties (.296 kills per sortie)
Gentile had 19.83 kills after 106 sorties (.187 kills per sortie)
Beeson had 17.33 kills after 97 sorties (.179 kills per sortie)

Beeson was one of the 8th's elite, no question. However, there were other pilots scoring faster and achieving much higher scores.

If we were to count ground kills, then Elwyn Righetti (Eager El) would be number one with 7.5 air to air and 27 ground kills. 34.5 combined total was the highest in the ETO/MTO.

My regards,

Widewing

Treize69 · « **Reply #122 on:** May 30, 2007, 08:07:42 PM »

I should have used the 5 paragraph disclaimer everyone else uses when discussing the 8th AAF pilots.

They did count ground kills the same as a2a ones for the purposes of scoring in the "ace race", but the problem was none of the other numbered AAFs did. In the papers and the official publications at the time (and most books on the 8th to date) they listed combined scores and often didn't differentiate between the two. It was only later in the war and when the other theaters started to complain about the 8th pilots getting all the credit of aces for shooting up parked planes that the problem started.

The practice was started to encourage the pilots to go down after the Luftwaffe instead of wait for them to come up to play, and it worked since the Luftwaffe was essentially destroyed as a coherent force by summer 1944.

Unfortunately many top aces who probably never would have been beaten in the airw ere either killed or captured strafing airedromes- Beeson, Beckham, Goodson, and Gabreski being just a few.

For one questionable decision by some officer flying a desk, 60 years of controversy was spawned and many outstanding leaders lost.

BTW- its interesting to note that shortly before he was himself downed by flak, Beeson commented on Beckhams loss as a stupid waste of a talented pilot.

And Bong had already beaten Rickenbackers record weeks before Gentile did, and all his were in the air. People do tend to forget that one.

Sikboy · « **Reply #123 on:** May 30, 2007, 08:09:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Saxman
I have to say I'm a Boyington fan.

Did he exaggerate his record? Probably, but even the more conservative of estimates place him fairly high among America's aces. For all his faults, no one can say that Boyington wasn't an excellent pilot and fighter.

I'm not saying anyone should make a role model of him, as "Colorful" doesn't begin to describe him, but I think that's part of what makes him such an interesting character.

Yep. Boyington. To do what he did (even exaggerated) while a total alcoholic is amazing. He really was larger than life and such Bravado is rarely seen outside of Hollywood.

-Sik

Widewing · « **Reply #124 on:** May 30, 2007, 08:27:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Treize69

And Bong had already beaten Rickenbackers record weeks before Gentile did, and all his were in the air. People do tend to forget that one.

Gentile never broke Rickenbacker's record. Not even close, even with ground kills he falls short. In the race to break 26 kills the USAAF counted only air to air kills. Ground kills, although encouraged by the 8th AF and pilots were allowed to to paint victory markers, were never officially counted as victories by the AAF. The 8th AF and the USAAF both recognized that Johnson was the first in the 8th to exceed 26 kills.

By the way, Bong needed nearly twice as many sorties to reach 27 as Johnson did.

My regards,

Widewing

Joker312 · « **Reply #125 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:27:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing

Let me toss out a bit of history though......

On March 15th, Bob Johnson led all 8th AF pilots with 22 kills. By April 13th, he had 25 kills. On May 8th, 1944 he shot down two more for a total of 27. Johnson was the first to beat Rickenbacker (26 kills). He was promptly sent home.

My regards,

Widewing

Not taking away anything from the fine aces of 8th AF but Joe Foss had 26 kills in January 43' flying a Wildcat against some of the best pilots the Japanese had to offer, a full 17 months before Robert Johnson. He was then removed from combat to return home and awarded the CMOH. He returned to the pacific for a short time when malaria forced him back to the US

He gained those 26 kills in a little more than 3 months of combat. Johnson took almost year to get his.

And lets not forget Boyington who downed his 26th, 27th, and 28th kill on Jan 3, 1944. (4 months before Johnson)

And I know about the 4 missing claims form his time with the AVG but his story has been accepted by the majority of authors I have read and thats good enough for me.

wojo71 · « **Reply #126 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:30:58 PM »

Col. Francis S. "Gabby" Gabrieski

I first read a book about him when I was grade school , my friends and I used to ride our bikes around like we were fighter pilots

"shooting "at each other

I think all we did was HO each other, good times.

Joker312 · « **Reply #127 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:33:10 PM »

Geez,

I was thinking of Tarrytown NY when I read your post Widewing. Terryville is a few miles away from where I live. Sorry for the confusion.

EsX_Raptor · « **Reply #128 on:** May 30, 2007, 10:05:32 PM »

Erich Hartmann padded kills lol

Oldman731 · « **Reply #129 on:** May 30, 2007, 10:36:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Treize69
For one questionable decision by some officer flying a desk, 60 years of controversy was spawned and many outstanding leaders lost.

I don't think it was a questionable decision. I think it was one of the smartest things anyone came up with in that war.

- oldman (but it would be wrong to do it in AH2!)

PanzerIV · « **Reply #130 on:** May 30, 2007, 10:59:53 PM »

pssst...Hans-Ulrich rudel is awesome. Even though he was a Real Nazi...(only drawback)
but he served on Western front so unless your Polish, Russian, or Finnish, dont worry about if he killed your Grandpa.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #131 on:** May 30, 2007, 11:19:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by PanzerIV
pssst...Hans-Ulrich rudel is awesome. Even though he was a Real Nazi...(only drawback)
but he served on Western front so unless your Polish, Russian, or Finnish, dont worry about if he killed your Grandpa.

Pretty big drawback wouldn't ya say?

Widewing · « **Reply #132 on:** May 30, 2007, 11:56:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Joker312
Not taking away anything from the fine aces of 8th AF but Joe Foss had 26 kills in January 43' flying a Wildcat against some of the best pilots the Japanese had to offer, a full 17 months before Robert Johnson. He was then removed from combat to return home and awarded the CMOH. He returned to the pacific for a short time when malaria forced him back to the US

He gained those 26 kills in a little more than 3 months of combat. Johnson took almost year to get his.

And lets not forget Boyington who downed his 26th, 27th, and 28th kill on Jan 3, 1944. (4 months before Johnson)

And I know about the 4 missing claims form his time with the AVG but his story has been accepted by the majority of authors I have read and thats good enough for me.

I disagree, and so does the Marine Corps, the AVG and several historians who have written extensively on Boyington. Bruce Gamble goes into great detail about Boyington's claims with the AVG. He was credited with 2 air to air kills. He tried to get the AVG to allow a share of 15 planes destroyed on the ground during an AVG raid. His share as he claimed was 3.75 kills. The AVG didn't award victories for ground kills, but the Chinese paid out the same rate whether or not they were air to air or killed on the ground.

Boyington's total, with the 2 AVG kills is 24. That is the official record. 2 with the AVG and 22 with the VMF-214.

Read Gamble's books. Bruce is a retired Navy fighter pilot (retired due to contracting MS).

My regards,

Widewing

Obie303 · « **Reply #133 on:** May 31, 2007, 01:32:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by PanzerIV
pssst...Hans-Ulrich rudel is awesome. Even though he was a Real Nazi...(only drawback) but he served on Western front so unless your Polish, Russian, or Finnish, dont worry about if he killed your Grandpa.

You didn't put too much thought into this statement. First off, Rudel fought on the Eastern Front. Secondly, only a complete prettythang would say "dont worry about it..." about someone killing their Grandfather.

Maybe you would say the same about Mussolini's regime using poisionous gas on Allied troops and civilians in Italy or the Nazis killing millions of Jews. What of the occupation of France? Or the Japanese treatment of POWs. Hopefully, none of your family relatives are in those groups. But if they were, you "wouldn't worry about" I bet.

Obie

Grayeagle · « **Reply #134 on:** May 31, 2007, 02:23:41 AM »

I'm with Hornet .. they are all hero's .. they were there.

Aces or not.

Granted .. I cannot imagine being 20yrs old and earning the right to have a brand new Mustang of my very own to dance in the sky with.

To fly and fight with.

As for the 'murder' B.S. .. fine .. you stand there an get shot.
It *was* either kill or be killed.

They, unlike us, only got one try at it.
They had to be 'right' the first time.

-GE ( I feel I would have been very good or very dead ..IMHO )