Author Topic: Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?  (Read 3796 times)

Offline Krusty

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« on: June 06, 2007, 03:29:22 PM »
DISCLAIMER: This is mostly for cheaper sticks, budget sticks, not applicable to X52s, X45s, anything Saitek (I've never owned one) or any high-end TM or CH gear.

If anybody wants to make this a sticky, please do.

I've typed up a couple of semi-helpful posts in the past, and have linked folks to them more than once. I even got a compliment on a couple of them once. I just re-compiled the quotes in another recent thread, so I figured I'd start my own thread.

This can help if you are fighting the stick more than the enemy. If you have Logitech, this will NOT fix it, but it might lessen the effects. I used something similar when I had a Wingman Extreme3D before moving to my MS Sidewinder. Note that one post approximates twisty-action scaling, but the other shows no scaling because I switched to rudder pedals.

Adjusting the amount of deadband (small amounts) and damping (larger amounts) can help with nose bounce as well! The scaling also can help (as it reduced mine a great deal).

Scaling (in general, how it works)

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Stick scaling doesn't change the time it takes to get to a deflection, that's dampening.

Scaling has 2 extremes, 0 and 100. At 0 (center) you will have the same deflection as the stick. At 100 you will have the same deflection as the stick. What the scaling does is change the position of the stick and the position on the curve between those two points. The older graph was much better at showing this.

I drew a fast graph. Pretend this is accurate :)


EDIT: This is only one direction. Mirror it on the left side to see both left and right motion for the same axis


The green line is your stick movement. You have zero to full, in a smooth straight line. This is what you get when you disable "scaling" on the scaling page.

Now, we'll use my Y-axis. Pretend it's a bit more curved. By taking my Y-axis and scaling it like I did, I get the red line. This means the more push the stick along its deflection (from 0 to 100) I get less movement. This means I can fine-tune my position. Then as the scaling jumps up it moves more at the further deflection, until finally at the end it's 100% again.

The yellow lines are the sliding scales. The bottom of each yellow line is its own 0 and the top of each is its own 100. Think of it as a percent of the total deflection possible.

I'm not sure if I've described that clearly, but I tried. I hope it was helpful.


My scaling (not perfect but should help a bit, work best with older budget sticks):

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
MS Sidewinder gameport, CH pedals gameport (hard-wired to work without an attached joystick).





Now that I look at it, my Y axis could use a little tweaking, but I'm not going to mess with it. I'm used to it at the moment.


Regarding rudders (and aiming):

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I was tagging along with spiked earlier today as a passenger while he was fighting. I didn't have much time and might have had to leave in the middle of a fight, so he let me watch. I noticed the nose bounce he had and asked him about it, and told him I had the same problem a while back. I used to have that same problem.

For the most part it's been eliminated. Even when I still used a twisty-stick rudder I was able to get rid of most of it.

What's the problem? Most of it's scaling. Here's an image for illustration:



Now the crosshair is where you're pointing without rudder input. I aimed high so you could see the stuff I was about to draw on it and still see the target. The green (green = good) is where you want it. The yellow (yellow = caution) is where it goes. The smallest possible input on your rudder axis produces a large leap. In fact it usually takes a bit more than "minimal" input before this first leap in input takes effect.

You end up going PAST the target, then if you over correct or try to reduce the rudder it swings all the way past to the other side. You end up going back and forth around the target, as illustrated with the red lines on top (red = bad).

There is a way to fix this. I spent many hours fine-tuning my twisty-stick to get it to the point where I could aim well using the twisty stick. I got SO good at aiming with my twisty stick it's taken me this long to become comfortable after switching to pedals!

Okay, the problem is you don't have any fine-tuning ability. The smallest input you can give produces too large a rudder deflection. Go to your rudder scaling in aces high, and try this:



I've had this memorized, I spent so much time getting it right. I reproduced it offline right now (I don't use it with the pedals, they're a different beast altogether).

You see how the first 10%, 20%, are almost the same? 30% is only a hair more, and 40% is where it starts climbing? This means you use more input and get LESS results. That means you CAN fine-tune your shots. When you use rudder you will no longer zip back and forth across the target. However, you WILL have to re-learn your aiming. It will take some time to get comfortable, as you will need to add MORE input than you're used to. Once you're used to adding more input you'll be good to go.

A side note about this scaling. It's designed to allow more motion with less input on the first half of the scale. That means no more "push until the stick kicks in -- oops it's kicked in too much I better back off". It's more like "I know I have to push anyways, and when it kicks in it will be gentle". Then as you get past the fine-tuning stage, you get into the rudder range most often used for movements. Half-deflection would be more useful with coordinated turns, or applying rudder to prevent slip in slow-speed spiral climbs, and so on. The last stage goes very steeply, because there are only a few times you need 100% rudder deflection, and usually you're slamming on the rudder pedal and it doesn't require any fine tuning. You would use this for forcing over-shoots, possibly correcting spin, and slowing down to land (side slipping).

Note that I cannot put them all at zero. My stick spikes even while at rest. If I set them at zero it will spike in game and I will get "do not move so fast" messages. You want some deadzone to prevent spikes and accidental auto-pilot disabling. You do NOT want to move your deadband higher than the level of your lowest slider. The lowest slider in this case is the first 10%. If you still have spiking and you need to shift deadband up, then you must move all the sliders from 1 through 5 up as well, so that the lowest one is still above the deadband slider. Then adjust the others to continue the curve.

If you have deadband higher than your first sliders, then your input will skip those and "jump" to the next highest one, and you get back to the problem with sudden jerky motions.

Is this system perfect? No. It's pretty close, though. I literally spent a couple of years constantly changing and tweaking it, and this helped me get rid of most of my aiming problems.

You can do similar things to X and Y axis as well, but I would suggest a more casual slope, as you don't need as much fine tuning on those. You might not need this on anything but your rudder.

If you have any questions please ask. I had to go out, but was thinking about typing this up while I was out, and hope I haven't missed anything vital or important.

EDIT: A note on fine-tuning. 50/60/70 are what you'd do if you were uncomfortable with the mid-range motions. Were I still using a twist-action, I'd lower these a little, to allow a little more finesse. 80 should always be halfway between 70 and 90, but 50/60/70 will define the angle of the curve between 40 and 90.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 03:32:04 PM by Krusty »

Offline Daubie

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re: The Good Stuff
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 04:12:51 PM »
I print out and make a folder file in my filing cabinet.

Pretty soon I will need a dedicated filing cabinet just for AH  {;^)

Thank you.

Offline oldtard

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 06:16:58 PM »
awsome post man TY for the scrren shots

Offline Ghosth

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2007, 09:21:51 PM »
HTC put that man to work!

Offline Max

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 09:33:10 PM »
Great post Krusty. As they say, a picture's worth a thousand words. You've got both bases covered :D

Offline Krusty

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 02:12:45 PM »
Bump to request sticky please :)

Offline gusman

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 03:50:09 PM »
Thanks Krusty:aok

I'm going to try your scaling tonight (Logitech stick here). I usually don't have time for setup because I'm impatient.

I've noticed when I'm flying really slow with flaps extended my plane seems to wallow and is tough to get on target. Is this what we are talking about here?

Cheers,

gusman44

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Offline TequilaChaser

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 04:24:10 PM »
1st, my apologys for such a longwinded reply.........

something to think about regarding scaling, stick wear ,and longivity of stick use.....

some odd 14 +/- years ago when I 1st started online flying ( 12 years fulltime )

I started out with an old Wingman stick by logitech, there was no 3d or 3d extreme etc..... CH had its flight stick out back then, best I recall and I think the Fighter Stick was about to be launched .

anyhow, I had a person tell me to  work on my scaling.  told me to throw in this curvature mid way into it........well I proceeded to do this and flew like this for a good 2 to 3 years, and it helped a great deal in the beginning.......just as Krusty has showed you in the above pics to go about doing it......

with that said, I began to run up against others online who was beating me on angles, not that they was turning tighter turns per say, but they was getting there quicker.......also at the same time my stick was starting to wear out.......

now my thoughts since then are as follows, and it is just a personal opinion as well.......the scaled curvature I put into setting up my stick made me have to pull it more in the middle of the movement than the other person I was up against , who was scaled at "Full Real" or in other words 100% across the top.... the  hypothesis of this for me told me it was wearing out my equipment at a quicker rate from having to pull or push on the stick more, and it let the opponent beat me ......

so to fix these two problems, I began to scale my stick at 100% FULL REAL ( that is what that old beloved flight sim Air Warrior called it ), in doing so I was able to use less movement to obtain the same desired effect, and I was able to begin and arrive at my destination faster.......

I am not saying that stick scaling is bad/wrong/misguiding or anything of the sort......what I am saying is that once you become more proficient in your skills of online flying..you may just want to rethink  how you have your stick set up'ed......

now if I was to take a guess at how many of the top 10 to 15%  of the fiter pile-its in Aces High had their equipment set. I would assume that 95+% of them fly with their sticks scaled as mentioned 100% across the top.........

another thought that has always interested me was, why do people's sticks wear out so quickly regardless of type/brand etc.....especially when alot of us have had and used the same equipment for 8/10/12 years etc.......I often wonder if it is the same reason as I have mentioned here........

as for nose bounce, I have no trouble with it , but I use  trim to solve my problem with this. I set  my trim for each plane as follows: I let the plane get to level flight cruise speed, most times this is somewhere between 275 and 350 IAS depending on plane model ( Indicated air speed : white needle )  ( TAS is the red needle btw )

and then turn trim off ( Ctrl-X for CT-combat trim  or  ALt-X : autoclimb or Shift-X: autoangle ) to manual........in doing so most fights are slower than this level flight cruise speed. So when I am lining up for a shot on the opponent, I have to pull for the shot rather than push/pull/push/pull trying to rest my bore site on the target fighting the bouncey nose syndrome.......if you are pulling for the shot you can be more steady and more finese....

so yes stick scaling works, especially in your beginning years...but my observations/thoughts of it leans toward reverting back to 100% across the top as you progress with your abilitys.......YMMV.......

( if you want to test the theory yourself, go offline and up any plane, go to F3 view mode and look at your aileron & elevators Left side or Right side and watch them move, along with your stick movement. then adjust your scaling to the opposite of what you just witnessed, if you was scaled with a curvature set it to 100% across the top........or vice versa then watch in F3 view and notice the difference through the whole spectrum of stick movement....there is a difference, depending on the curvature you use it can be very slight to very broad.........)

hope this helps
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Krusty

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 04:46:33 PM »
Thanks for offering another side of things, but I would like to disagree with you. :)

If you move it 1/5 deflection or 1/2 deflection, it's still moving. It's the movement that wears out pots. Scaling won't have any effect on the wear and tear of the stick itself. It's purely the software side of things.

If you're going to pull "back" on the stick, you can do either deflection in a split second. Having to pull back 50% or 75% to get the same deflection shouldn't change the fact that you can get that deflection as fast as the motor-neurons can travel to your arm muscles.

If your stick is placed in such a way that it is awkward to pull full deflection then I can start a whole 'nother thread on ergonomics and stick placement.

Might I offer an explanation for the events you noticed? A possible one?

You were working on a dying stick. You were still learning. You were at the point where you were noticing your skills improve, and you got a decent-quality stick to help that along. That doesn't mean that stick scaling itself had anything to do with it. It's secondary.

Many "top tier" pilots use x52s and x45s and CH gear. All of these are more expensive (and usually the more serious -- the eventually more skilled? -- pilots seem to use them) and more precise. They do not need stick scaling most of the time, generally because they are precise enough to get the accuracy needed without scaling.

The cheaper sticks need scaling to get the same accuracy. You trade movement arc for control of the crosshairs. So the reason a lot of the "top tier" pilots don't scale is because their specific gear is of a level high enough to not require it.

In my not-so-humble opinion (having worked with scaling my joystick in this game ever since AH1 left beta), scaling does not affect your skill. Scaling only allows you to get the most control you want out of your stick. Basically it lets you point the stick where you want. It's like a mouse, you see the cursor, you move the mouse, and you get precise control over where the cursor goes. If you've got a bad ball-mouse, it doesn't go where you want, often sticking, jumping, and doing bad things. That's the equivelant of if my stick were unscaled. You clean out the rollers and all of a sudden the mouse works much better! You move the mouse and the cursor goes pretty close to where you want it. That's my joystick with scaling.

Now, getting an expensive optical mouse would be the equivelant of a CH or Saitek setup, you don't need to clean anything (read: no scaling), it just works.

To further the metaphor... If all you know how to do in photoshop is draw stickfigures, scaling doesn't matter. If you want to do something, scaling lets you do it. What you can do is up to your skills, but at least you can do what you see in your mind's eye.

If you've got an older stick (not Saitek X52 quality, not CH quality, etc) then chances are you NEED to scale it or it's nearly unplayable. If you move to better hardware later, you need to re-evaluate this scaling based on the new hardware, and adjust or disable the scaling then.

Offline TequilaChaser

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 04:59:49 PM »
Krusty, I am not arguing or  agreeing.......am simply as you put it offering another opinion..

I also mentioned that it helps  people in the beginning....

to me the biggest reason it helps is not because someone has a cheap stick or worn out stick, it is because the newer people do not have the finese control ( read that as practiced motor skills in their reflexes of their arms/hands ) as the more "flown for ever salty dogs of the game" have acquired....

once they improve their attributes/motor skills/reflexes , I say for them to re-evaluate  their stick setup to possibly find an improvement........

and Thank You for  your contributing of this article / thread....... ~S~

just a little note to add: I myself offer students to set their sticks the same way you have described here, Krusty.and I have done so for nearly 10 years....
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Rolex

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 05:50:14 PM »
To add to TC's comment, I don't see any benefit gained by scaling aileron deflection, only a disadvantage. I think it's preferable to roll to a desired angle of  bank as quickly as possible. The faster you can roll, the faster you get started into oblique maneuvers, scissors, barrel rolls, split s and can roll into gun solutions from above.

Adding some scaling to rudder and elevator deflection can help people reduce some of the "hamfistedness" that contributes to blacking out quickly and giving up big chunks of energy in one gulp, but I'll take snappy roll performance over smooth since nose bounce and g loading isn't a factor in roll.

Offline Murdr

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 06:11:52 PM »


Thats my rudder scale.  My elevator scale starts at about the 50% mark.  I don't see a need to scale aileron.

Scaleing will help with nose bounce.  It can help you develop a fine touch with your controls.  The concave curve is a good starting point, but it may have to be adjusted from controller to controller, and the "right" way to do it is what works for you.  In other words, use some trial and error to figure out what scaling works best for your stick and the way you fly.  Its worth the effort.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 06:17:25 PM by Murdr »

Offline DamnedRen

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 02:52:21 AM »
While not arguing scaling either way I'd like to touch on the way a real planes controls work...

I would think it goes something like this:

If you move the stick a lil teeny bit the control surface out there stuck to the plane should move a lil teeny bit. If you move the stick more the control surface should move to mirror the stick movement at the control surface. Half stick deflection should equal half control surface movement. Full deflection should move control surfaces to their full deflection.

They don't go from 0 deflection to 100% in the first slight movement of the stick although it appears that it can be the case in the game. You can actually sit on the runway, make adjustments and look at how the stick movement corresponds with the movement of the control surfaces.

My point is if you set up your plane like a real one you can expect it to behave honestly to your inputs every single time. So what does that mean?

If you're slow expect more stick input to include everything up hard over in all stick positions.

If you're fast you will find you have much more "feel" and control of the airplane to the point that you will probably never black out in a fight again.

The nose bounce will almost disappear although you gotta remember if you move the stick in a fight the nose will dance a lil bit because it's just responding to your inputs.

A lil personal experience...buzzing around in a scooter gives you a new perspective on stick input...the jet had a roll rate of 720 degrees per second. Half stick deflection got you approximately 360 degrees per second. You can actually recage your eyeballs rolling at 360 degrees per second but when you stopped the roll from full deflection your eyes would continue to roll around in your head for another 2 -3 seconds.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I personally like to fly the planes in this game like the real thing. What's most important for you is that you are comfortable with whatever settings you finally feel comfortable with. What makes life really nice is all the recommendatiions in this thread gives you different perspectives of the differences in the folks flying here. What makes it even better is you can try any of them out for yourself and see what you works for you. If you don't like what you try all you gotta do is change it.

Hope this helps.

Offline Rollins

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2007, 07:09:41 AM »
I thank and appreciate all in this thread, no offense, good thread and some stuff I had no idea about. But-I'd like Hammer to weigh in on this.
http://www.flamewarriors.net    Here kitty kitty...

Offline Krusty

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Problems aiming? Target won't line up? Bouncing?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2007, 08:32:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
to me the biggest reason it helps is not because someone has a cheap stick or worn out stick, it is because the newer people do not have the finese control ( read that as practiced motor skills in their reflexes of their arms/hands ) as the more "flown for ever salty dogs of the game" have acquired....


I think this is a very good point! :aok