Gun crazy Swiss

[moot]

Utopia would be that zero crime rate in addition to a guarantee of gun ownership being uninfringed and as unrestricted as in the US.

[Rolex]

Plus, free beer, no politicians and women who never ask about "our relationship."

[Xargos]

Governments don't make men equal...guns do.

[Charon]

Don't belive we had anyone shot in the country for a couple of years now.
As for murder rate, I think this year still stands at zero.
Utopia?

We have plenty of midsized towns in the US with a comprable population to Iceland and with a similarly impressive lack of violent crime crime. Utopia isn't all that hard to find even with broader freedoms to get int he way.

Charon

[lazs2]

oh this is good... lambchop and ferndale and beetle all defending each other...

like sybil.

So now we say that ten firemen were wounded by firearms in french riots.  and... one was stabbed.   I don't want to be shot or stabbed or beaten or have my stuff burned...  I want to shoot anyone who tries.

It is funny.. no matter what the laws.. the government can't protect you..  you are kidding yourself and just saying...it is relatively safe here so I will probly get away with not ever needing a gun.  

angus says that restricted guns make his country a safe one with no murders... sortal like some north dakota counties... in population, ethnic mix and crime.

What we need to look at is gun laws anywhere that decreased murder and serious crime... what gun law has ever done that?  well... none have.

I can however point to some lessening of gun restrictions that have reduced serious crime.   I can point to the 1-3 million crimes a year here that are prevented with firearms and the little town that has an ordinance that says everyone MUST have a firearm and their reduction in crime.

lazs

[Shuckins]

Angus, Iceland may be murder free...but your population is very small, isolated, and largely homogenous.  Those three factors in combination normally produce a low-crime rate.

In addition, things are not exactly perfect in the area of social behavior.  Doesn't Iceland lead the world in alcoholism and teenage suicides?

Regards, Shuckins

[lazs2]

angus... what gun laws in your country do you think are responsible for the low murder rate?

What gun laws are responsible for your high drunk and suicide rate?

Very restrictive gun laws do seem to increase suicide... take japan for instance...  

lazs

[Angus]

Originally posted by lazs2
angus... what gun laws in your country do you think are responsible for the low murder rate?

What gun laws are responsible for your high drunk and suicide rate?

Very restrictive gun laws do seem to increase suicide... take japan for instance...  

lazs

For starters, the fact that the murder rate is that low where the gun laws are that strict rather suggests that the law are working.
Or do you suggest that ample availability of handguns in our country would perhaps improve this further?
As for suicides, well hurrah, you've been trying to do some homework. Okay, it's high. It's actually a worldwide thing, when you enter the dark northern zones, the suicide rate goes up respectively. Our country follows the pattern of the latitude, but with an abnormality, - our suicide (and depression) rate is quite a bit lower than to be expected. Go to 66°N in Norway, Russia or even Canada, and you'll see worse figures. Do you suggest that ample availability of handguns in our country would perhaps fix that?

As for Japan, - that's Japan and the Japanese. They don't need guns for suicide, - au contrare. But the guncrimes (as well as capital crimes) are way lower than in the USA. Well, that's the Japanese....

Oh and Shuckins, - we're not that isolated, - however enough for the gun law to work. In the USA, how would you expect that total gun freedom in one state would not "leak" into another one.

And finally, we have guns. I have 3. Just no assault weapons and handguns. And the law is all about keeping them safe and in the right hands. I plan for more Suggestion for a Sniper rifle?

[lazs2]

try to keep up angus.

What was your serious crime/homicide rate before all your gun laws and which gun laws reduced said rate?

lazs

[Charon]

For starters, the fact that the murder rate is that low where the gun laws are that strict rather suggests that the law are working.

As I have posted in the past, on this very subject with you, there are plenty of communities within the US that have a comparable population to your country and a comparably low homicide rate even with our "lax" gun laws. That would suggest that the gun laws issue is irrelevant compared to other factors. Just as it is irrelevant with suicide rates. I have no more to fear in my community than you do in yours, but should I lose the luck lottery I can potentially even the odds on an armed criminal or a vicious, prison-sculpted unarmed criminal or a group of unarmed criminals without having to rely on the scoped hunting rifle in the tight confines of my house that I don't have in the first place because I don't hunt.

Frankly, in the majority of neighborhoods even in a city like Chicago I have little extra to fear statistically. I would not be found hanging out on the corner with my gangbanger friends to be caught up in a driveby because I disrespected some thug or invaded someone's drug distribution turf. Roughly 80+ percent of all firearm crime is criminal on criminal, in about 5 counties that have a major urban population center in a pattern that dates back to the earliest immigrant/urban days like found in the movie "Gangs of New York." Just a haves vs have not, land of opportunity, ghetto dumping ground kind of thing that's a bit hard to turn around these days.

But, it would really suck in a permanent way to be on the wrong side of those odds -- as unlikely as it is.

Charon

[lazs2]

charon... I am sure glad you are on my side on this instead of against me.

lazs

[Angus]

Originally posted by lazs2
try to keep up angus.

What was your serious crime/homicide rate before all your gun laws and which gun laws reduced said rate?

lazs

We never did get armed that well, - the gun laws sort of came along with the economical potential of buying them.
And of course the law workd better because of our "isolation",  - gun running up here is not easy. I really always scratch my head about why the US has it different between states that are not seperated by anything except the law.
And Charon:
"As I have posted in the past, on this very subject with you, there are plenty of communities within the US that have a comparable population to your country and a comparably low homicide rate even with our "lax" gun laws."
Of course there are, but you will find NONE of them with the same diversity. We are, after all, a COUNTRY. We have our spectrum of folks, we have our culture, and we actually have a lot of emigrants.
As for our pattern of the guncrime, there is some candy there. Such as the country's first gun-armed bank robbery made by a US citizen(as well as hijacking a car and driver, - he got caught!), 2 gun-dead in a stretch killed in a crime of passion (the shooters both shot themselves thereafter), and the latest gundead was killed by a smuggled handgun. (kids).
The total amount of guns may not be up to the quantity of the U.S., but there are many guns about. Our diversity is the ban of handguns. And the law seems to hold nicely, - with an economy-boom, increased population, and lots of immigrants, the guncrime percentage sticks to the flatline. Aint that nice

[Charon]

Of course there are, but you will find NONE of them with the same diversity. We are, after all, a COUNTRY. We have our spectrum of folks, we have our culture, and we actually have a lot of emigrants.

Nationality:
noun: Icelander(s)
adjective: Icelandic
Ethnic groups:

homogeneous mixture of descendants of Norse and Celts 94%, population of foreign origin 6%

Wow Angus. You got me there. Iceland is a real melting pot. Let's look at the US.

According to the Census Bureau's 2005 American Community Survey the US population is as follows:[7]

White American, 74.7%, or about 215.3 million (the definition of White includes European Americans, Middle Eastern Americans (e.g. Arab Americans, Iranian Americans), Central Asian Americans, and Hispanic Americans who reported as White in the 2000 Census)
Black or African American 12.1% or 34.9 million
Asian American 4.3% or 12.5 million,
American Indian 0.8% or 2.4 million
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander 0.1% or 0.4 million
Some other race 6% or 17.3 million
Two or more races 1.9% or 5.6 million
[Note: even the "white" catagory includes everything from Arabian to hispanic descent]

The homicide rate in Iceland is 1 per 100k with a roughly 300,000 total population.

The City of Plano Texas, with a population of 250,096 has a homicide rate of 0.8 per 100k. Texas is, of course, the home of stringent gun control in the Icelandic model as we all know.

What about its diversity? The racial makeup of the Plano is 78.26% White, 5.02% African American, 0.36% Native American, 10.18% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 3.86% from other races, and 2.28% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 10.07% of the population.

Ann Arbor Michigan, with a population of 343,400 was actually 0 in 2005. Again, plenty of guns around. 74.68% White, 8.83% Black or African American, 0.29% Native American, 11.90% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 1.21% from other races, and 3.05% from two or more races. 3.34% of the population were Hispanic American or Latino. Because of the pull of the university, the city has one of the highest foreign-born population percentages in the state sitting at 16.6%. Oddly though, Detroit, in the same state, had a rate of 39.3. Hmmm.

Our diversity is the ban of handguns. And the law seems to hold nicely, - with an economy-boom, increased population, and lots of immigrants, the guncrime percentage sticks to the flatline. Aint that nice

Lets compare ICELAND and DETROIT specifically to show how the whole gun thing is probably all that sets the two apart.

Diverse population

Iceland
homogeneous mixture of descendants of Norse and Celts 94%, population of foreign origin 6%

Detroit
As of 2001, the City of Detroit had 81.55 percent African Americans, 12.26 percent white, 0.33 percent Native American, 0.97 percent Asian 0.03 percent Pacific Islander, 2.54 percent from other races, and 2.32 percent from two or more races. 4.96 percent of the population was Hispanic or Latino of any race. The city's foreign-born population stood at 4.8 percent. The Detroit suburbs in Oakland County and Macomb County are primarily white. Oakland County is among the most affluent counties in the nation. Of the African-Americans who live in the metropolitan area, about 70 percent live within the Detroit city limits.

Population density per km2

Iceland = 2.8

Detroit = 2,646.7

Economy

Iceland
The economy of Iceland is small but well-developed, with a gross domestic product estimated at US$10.57 billion in 2005 (and a per capita GDP of $38,100, which is among the world's highest.)[1]

Detroit
n March 2007, metropolitan Detroit's unemployment rate was 6.5 percent.[54] In the city, the unemployment rate was 14.2 percent at the end of 2005, leaving Detroit with more than one-third of residents below the poverty line.[55] Parts of the city have abandoned and burned out shells of buildings. The city has struggled to obtain funding to demolish blighted properties and the homes... Detroit still has the highest percentage of people living below the poverty line (one-third). The unemployment rate of 6.8 percent trails only hurricane-paralyzed New Orleans.

Percapita GDP = $29,465    

Yeah, obviously the only difference between Iceland and the US as far as homicide rates are concerend are the gun laws. Other than that, you could step of the plane from Iceland in Detroit or LA or NY or Chicago and hardly know you left home.

Charon

[Toad]

[Angus]

So may I assume  that by slackening our gun laws as well as allowing handguns would lower our crime rate even further?
And may I also assume that that would be the case in the homogenous as well as homogenetic U.K.?
You're comparing a country to a city. How about finding a city of 200.000 and comparing it to...Reykjavík? Or comparing our country to a whole state or zone in the USA? Or comparing the USA as a whole to a country like Britain? Or comparing Detroit to Glasgow? or Hamburg?
As for the "melting pot", your stats shot the current figure of foreign citizens. They were at  only 2.6% in 1999. Those who come are mostly labour folks from countries low in economy, mostly Eastern-Europeans and Asians. In my town, the figure is between 10 and 20%, in some towns immigrants are half the population.  And in some areas you  will not find a foreigner.
As for the population density, some 90%+ (out of memory) of the population live in clusters (towns or the city). The rural areas have very low density and little population and most of the country is absolutely unpopulated.
Now, to the homicide rate, and capital crime. I tried to find some stats, but the bureau of statistic doesn't bother to list capital crime as a seperate. But I know it is very low indeed, and in almost if not all categories even way lower than in the UK, which in the capital department is much lower than the USA.
Apples to apples, and oranges to oranges.