lag warriors

[-towd_]

ok here it is this is my opinion and if you dissagree great. but there are people (mostly in fu4cs) that have a strage sort of lag that seems to alow them to hit you no matter what evasive u use ( case in point you lure a fu4c into a situation where he has to do a 230 deg 20 g turn to stay with you and he does at 400+ knots) or you lure same hog into a hight vert stall and wach him fall down uncontrolled and 3 sec later get hits , astonished i call out what the hell and he says i have cable and constant great ping it must be your crappy analog.

this is not true i have seen it before remember 1999 in the early days? it was simply impossible to avoid him he was laggin so bad he saw ya where you were not where you are bypassing you evasives and whacking you every time ( always e fighting cause in a dog fight this just gets um killed )

i am talkin about torq i have wached for weeks and am cnvinced his asycronous connect or some other syptom of his wideband is givein him a great advantage ( he seems to think its skill but 20 g turns and 5 sec lag kills arent my idea of skill)

ps these things dont happen with anyone else with my crapp anolog connect   ( average 150 ping 49000 connect in texas)

i said it and and mean it ( after weeks of wachin him pile up huge sortys in the no skill hog )

[-towd_]

ps .my crappy connect
C:\WINDOWS>tracert hitechcreations.com

Tracing route to hitechcreations.com [216.91.192.19]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1   106 ms   102 ms   101 ms  165.238.226.166
  2   103 ms   102 ms    98 ms  1.beaumont-01-02rs.tx.dial-access.att.net [12.74
.16.1]
  3   124 ms   123 ms   117 ms  165.238.254.105
  4   120 ms   154 ms   120 ms  gbr1-a30s4.dlstx.ip.att.net [12.127.13.53]
  5   125 ms   123 ms   121 ms  gr1-p350.dlstx.ip.att.net [12.123.16.169]
  6   145 ms   141 ms   145 ms  sl-gw17-fw-6-0-1-T3.sprintlink.net [144.232.193.
69]
  7   144 ms   144 ms   141 ms  sl-bb11-fw-2-3.sprintlink.net [144.232.11.105]
  8   145 ms   146 ms   138 ms  sl-gw13-fw-8-0-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.11.66]

  9   148 ms   143 ms   141 ms  sl-dnetfw-1-0-T3.sprintlink.net [144.228.137.6]

 10   156 ms   149 ms   158 ms  applink-1.usdlls.savvis.net [216.90.2.66]
 11   155 ms   170 ms   168 ms  hitechcreations.com [216.91.192.19]

[Lephturn]

You are doubling your posts towd, you posted this in the Training forum as well.  I'll copy my response.  Also you should realize that huge network attacks are being run on the net since Monday, so the Internet has big problems and many routers are under extremely heavy load.  This is causing connect problems all over the Internet, regardless of someone's connection speed.  In my answer below however, I am assuming that we are talking about lag, and not a connection hiccup or warp.

You need to film some of this towd, so we can really see what you mean.
I will say that Torque is a good pilot, and that is the reason he is racking up kills.

Also, his connect is only 1/2 of the equation remember. Your lag counts in the equasion as well. It may be the disparity in speeds that make things look a bit odd, but I can't imagine it's giving him any advantage. The problem I have with fellows that are lagged out more than I am is I sometimes mis-judge their threat potential. When a N1k driver pulls up under me, it sometimes looks like he won't be able to get his guns on me at all, but because of lag on his FE he makes the shot. That's just a fact of life in online gaming, and we all have to learn to adjust our perceptions a bit to compensate for it.



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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[DoctorYO]

Well I have a little hypothesis:

Towd for starters if your pinging at 150ms that means about 1-2 tenths of a sec delay to the server. Combine that with about 1 tenth of sec for cable and DSL, Isdn etc..(Torques connect)  They all ping under 100ms and usually about 50ms... Now thats just transit time from your client to server and then to your enemy's client.  Now factor return packet time to your client for your enemy's imputs.

Now all in all on average the "True delay" of information between the 2 clients is anywhere from 500ms or higher for modem users to 200ms for high speed access.  Now thats about 3 tenths of a sec difference minimum. (adjust for net conditions)

No that being  given go play someone in a highspeed game of Ping Pong with someone who is 3 tenths of sec faster than you.  You can still win with skill but you are at a disadvantage.

The same is true with multiplayer games..  People with fast connects do have an advantage simply becuase their nano connectors are much faster than yours..(Matrix has you)

So yes I do notice that Torque pulls some BS but being a one of the first poeple to really get into multiplayer games(DOS Quakeworld)I understand exactly what torque is seeing.  To him he probally thinks everbody is dud and and barely moves and hence do to his superior skill he just kills em. Now to us it appears as BS...But to him its very smooth.

My opinion on this matter is simple: people are always going to have faster equipment for multiplayer games.  Suck it up.. and wait for your turn to get high bandwidth to level the playing field.

I'm a freaking Network Professional and at my residence all I can get is a 56k modem that connects at 40-44k....My only other option is Direct PC and we all know the latency issues with satellite. Now granted at work I have access to T-1 but work doesn't have my Fatty joystick and chair etc.. hence no HT Aces High for me after work.... Everyday I go back to my bandwidth dungeon while little Johnny, 2 miles from my location is running his MP3 server at 800000kb/s, smoking crack and planning his next DOS attack.


Well hopefully this will enlighten you.


Regards,


DoctorYo

[Lephturn]

DoctorYo,

Aces High doesn't handle lag and damage the same way the FPS type games do.  What you see on your FE in AH is what counts for you, and the same for the other fellow.  FPS games model damage through what the server see's, so your connect to the server is the only part of the equasion that matters in something like Quake.  If your connect to the server is faster, you have an advantage in FPS type games.  In Aces High, it is what the FE see's that counts, so if I shoot you on my FE, you get damage.  The result being that the lag is a combination my lag and your lag.  The total speed of that circuit is going to determine the lag, and it doesn't mater who is the slower part of the circuit.  Although there is a delay between when your plane does something, and when the other fellow see's it, that delay is fairly constant.  It means that both players have the same issue to deal with, regardless of which one has the faster connection.  With the limitations of these planes and the smoothing code HTC uses, you don't need the ultra-fast movements that you need in Quake, so that lag is even less of a factor.

There may be a small difference in how long that delay is, but I can't see that giving anybody a significant advantage.  The lag will be the time it takes packets to go between my FE and his FE, so regardless of who's part of that circuit is slower, the speed of the circuit is the same for both players.  In any case, neither fellow's plane will appear to do anything "un-natural" because of lag, it just appears to happen at a later point in time to the guy on the other end.  The only time this can bite you is when you look at an enemy's nose position and it doesn't look like he has a shot at you.  On his FE, he is closer, or pointed more at you than it looks, because of the lag, so it is possible for him to shoot you without ever looking like he pulled lead on your FE.  However, in a turn-fight he will have the same impression you do.  It's quite interesting.. in a tail-chase on the deck with lag, both guys can think they are winning the fight. <G>  You just have to adjust your perceptions a bit because of the lag factor.

I do wonder what something like a sattelite connection would do though.  In that scenario, you would recieve updates much faster than you could send them, so you could conceivably have an un-even lag situation between two players.  However, HTC's required data rate is quite low, so I can't imagine there would be much disparity in the updates even in this situation.

FYI, I'm in the network admin bus. myself, so feel free to break into a technical explanation of your point if you wish.  

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-10-2000).]

[Kieren]

Yes, what DoctorYo and Leph said.

Got Leph the other day in a Nikki exactly as he described (he has gotten me far more). He took it for what it was, I just wasn't quite where he thought I was. No biggie.

Be careful. I was on last night when this all happened, and there were many people commenting on the warps they were seeing. And, as has been widely publicized, there is a reason (Cyberpunks). He said he would relog, but you continued to berate him. I know he finished the mission before he relogged. I know he got 4 kills out of it. Heck, if I was up and noticed lag, I would head for base. If I was attacked I would defend myself. Don't know if that is what happened, but hey, at least he agreed to relog after the mission.

I've flown around Torque for a long time; it does pi$$ you off when he gets you over and over, but I really don't think he cheats to do it. Mighty1 is another one that can pick you out of a crowd over-and-over and wax you. And with some guys, if you harrass them on open long enough, they will do exactly that.    

[Lephturn]

Hehe Kieren, that's exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote that bit. <G>

Every once in a while I forget the environment I'm in and believe my eyes.  In the encounter I mention I was engaging multiple bogies, and was trying to blow past Kieren's N1k to try a shot on another guy or maybe escape.  I rolled over and checked him out as he started to pull to me and though, "he's too late, can't get his guns on me", so I kept flying straight.  Ooops.  Kieren ## shot down Lephturn.    Note to self, don't forget about lag again when judging the enemy's position and E state. <G>

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[DoctorYO]

lets talk shop...


client A: 56k connect say at 40k average becuase upload time is only V.34

Client B: DSL 1.5mbit/s down 400,000kps up.
average about 800,000kps


Alright client A is pinging at about 200ms and he's engaged with client B who is pinging at 50ms.  Now the server is just a relay between the 2 clients(checksums anti cheating etc..)  When client A is talking to the server the minimum time for him to get a response is 200ms. Now client B can get his responses from the server at a rate of 4 times the amount of Client A. Now this is dependent on how fast the server responds and how much pipe it pushes to its clients in any given amount of time.

so for every update that client A gets, client B is getting 2 or more updates depending on server limit.  Hence, Client A notices slight warps especially in the vector/distance of the client B(not really warps just not getting the updates as fast as client B is giving them to the server.)  Client B notices Client A stopping then moving sometimes freezing in place or continuing on same vector even though client A has made a change in movement; the data has not reached the server yet and becuase of that client B is seeing Client A continue on same vector and is fair game to shoot..Note this is all at the level of millisecs but they do add up..

Granted this is not a FPS but even with the dynamics of the "smoothing coding" I still think the faster connection has an advantage. Only HTC will know the exact implecations of that.. I could use network analyzer but that would violate my TOS. So well leave that one to Pyro.

But on a raw network level of OSI what I said is correct by the limitations of packet based networking.  What HTC does with packets in a Application level your guess is good as mine.

Also note to prove this I have played Warbirds on a fast connect and I will tell you that you do have an advantage. Now for AH this may be different(DSL users hook your old analog up and connect to get me some more info.)

In any event this post is that of opinion and by no means is it law.  Only the creators of the game can tell you the exact dynamics of their code; and I bet they are smart and follow the simple philosophy of "not teaching your cat to read."


Regards,


DoctorYO


Edited: "Checkcums to checksums" huh huha haahuh Beavis.



[This message has been edited by DoctorYO (edited 02-10-2000).]

[Wardog]

Fact is Towd,ya have to get off the runway to engage & kill  

I kill Chutes, Sheep & TOWD on the runway!

------------------
Wardog = 357th Pony Express =
== Death From Behind ==

[Pongo]

Thanks for the detail Dryo.
we should punt this thread every 2 weeks.


------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[TT]

 Ive wacked torque to many times to belive he has a fudge of some kind. He is just good.

 As for the rest of it. I agree comepleatly. Dodgeing HO,s is far from easy. What you see aint what u get.

[Lephturn]

DoctorYO,

While your network analysis is fine, your assumptions are not, IMHO.  See, it doesn't matter how often I get updates from the server, because I get them from you, not the server.  You are still thinking like a Quake Server Operator.    Ok, the server handles the updates, but I can still only get updates you send, and at the speed you send them.  You can only get them as fast as I can send and you can recieve.  Yeah it goes through the server, but the total latency of that process is the latency of the entire circuit, not just my part to the server, or from the server to you.

You are right, in that only HTC really knows how this is all working.  I don't expec them to get into great detail in explanation because that is proprietary info.  However, this is my understanding of how the system works.  Hoof went into it a bit in this piece http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm  which should be required reading for all WB/AH players.  I believe AH uses a similar system.

The only thing I would add is that bandwidth is largely irrelevant.  You can play this game on 19.2k connection, and as long as you have a low-latency/high quality connect, it will run just fine.  That tells us that the ammount of information is not great.  Also, the smoothing code and what not is designed to use this system, as is the server code.  I would wager the update rate is quite low, and likely optimised for a 28.8k connection.  So although latency will still have some effect on the total time-delay between two opponents, I think that effect is greatly reduced by all the other factors I mentioned above.

Again, the only situation in which I see a possible imbalance would be one where one person's connection has much higher latency outbound than it does inbound.  Even then, unless that outbound connection was slower than a 28.8k modem, I can't see noticing a big difference.

I have a cable modem, but no regular modem.  I'll install AH at my folk's place when I can and see if I can see the difference on a 28.8k connect.  If anybody else could try that, it would be interesting to see your impressions.

------------------
Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[Skorpyon]

Not wanting to stir up problems, but TOWD, your attitude is one of the ones I was referring to on the General Discussion board under "Paying to Play-Pilot quality" in regards to people talking trash, etc., and how I had hoped this would decrease with pay for play.  You, among others, seem to have the opinion that your kills are because of your God-like skills, but the kills of others are for other, non-skill related reasons.  Yes, there are many factors working here... lag, connection speeds, end-user equipment,occasional bugs, etc.  I have seen some bizarre things playing AH, but really nothing that couldn't be fairly easily explained by the above factors.  What I have seen that IS totally preventable, is people who feel that each kill is cause to go on the primary radio channel and brag about it, and any death is cause to start wondering if someone is doing something to get an unfair advantage.  As in my other post, none of this has been directed at me personally, but I have seen it happening.  Don't get me wrong, you are by far not the only person acting this way, but you did post this particular thread. Heck, maybe when I saw you doing all this it was just a "bad personality night". Lighten up man, and realize that when ya get a kill, the only real compliment is the one that comes from the OTHER person, and realize also, that yes, you will be killed, yes an analog connection probably puts you at a disadvantage, and yes it is (gasp) just a "game".  I feel the same frustrations as you do at times, believe me.  I live so far out in the country, I can only connect at 28.8 on my 56k modem, so few people can complain more than I about crappy connection speeds.. pings that kill 2 seconds after the enemy flew past, etc., etc., etc.
Take a breath, hit the engine start key, and let yer guns do the talking... isn't that really what it's all about?
 

[-towd_]

we asked him to log on kill one he was on kill 5 befor he would ( people were hollerin for him to quit padding his score) he killed caveman and he never even saw him why? he poped up right behind him on my fe and several others . anyway my point was lost and i will not  post on this subject again

[bloom25]

I have two computers that I play Aces High on.  One uses a 56k modem and usually connects around 31600.  The other is on a 100baseT network and connects at incredible speed.    I can honestly say that the networked computer is easier to fly on.  Here are the main differences I've noticed:
1.  There is much less warping.
2.  It seems to take fewer hits to destroy an enemy plane while using the network computer.
3.  It is much easier to judge which way someone is going.
4.  The difference is NOT really that great.  The main difference is that everything appears smoother, hence the above differences.

IMO framerate is the most important factor for success in this game.  You really NEED 25+ fps to shoot accurately.
It is true, however, a faster connection does give you a small advantage in some cases.  (The quality of connections over the past week or so have been poor enough that I really haven't noticed a difference between my networked and modem computers.)
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS