Japanese debate on Nuclear Bombings

[Ghosth]

If we had not bombed Japan into submission, we would have had to invade.
Millions would have died, including armed forces, police, and civilians.
There would have been virtually no Japanese men left alive at the end other than a few POW's. They had plans to fight to the last man.

The toll on civilians would have been much much worse than it was. We would have virtually depopulated the country before they gave up. And frankly I doubt that they'd of quit fighting until we showed their emperor being killed, etc.

While it was horrific, and I hope it will never happen again. It was the best thing that could have happened.

What we could have done was depopulate the country, made slaves out of those who did survive. Taken Japan for a US territory, and kept them under our thumb for as long as we felt was necessary. After all, isn't that pretty much what they did to China the whole time they were in control there?

As it was we bombed them into submission, then turned right around and helped them rebuild their country and economy.

Much better end result than any other scenario that could possibly have worked.

[Laurie]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
The today actions of your country will be judged in 70 years from people
with a complete different perpective as today. And this People will have the
right to judge it no matter what country they are from.
Everything else would lead you know where -> VERBOTEN! State

but nice try to throw the Nazi card at me.
Can we go back to the Topic?

A spade's  a spade

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'm really biting my tongue on this one.   My grandfather fought on Guam, Okinawa and Occupation of China.   I don't find it funny, nor would anyone else.    You must really be a mental case, I'm convinced of it.

If you think I seriously meant that in my post - then I really feel offended.

You keep surprising me. Two different cultures, and you still have to understand how different we are. I try, but I usually fail, so what can I expect from people who will find http://www.wowrussia.com a true revelation and source of new information about my country?... Like your compatriots writing in another thread: "27 millions out of 150 lost in a war? How do i know when i was born 30 years after the Victory?!"... Sad.

[68ROX]

We're missing some very importaint chunks of history to this puzzle.

The United States had a plan in place to invade the Japanese mainland to bring about an end to the war.  Best estimates placed the carnage on both sides in the millions...so Truman had one heck of a dilema.  Use the two (almost three) nuclear bombs the US had developed and hope that in and of itself would force a surrender, or carry out the invasion plans with horriffic losses hundreds of times worse than the death toll of the atom bombs.

His decision saved lives on both sides.

Roosevelt and Churchill knew well before the Tehran Conference that Stalin had no intention of returning lands that the Soviet Army had overrun back to their original governments, and Truman was briefed on that subject on Roosevelt's death.  Truman knew if the Soviets continued their push onto Japanese soil, that soil might never get returned.

The Russians attacked the Finn's after saying the Russians were fired upon by Finnish artillery.  The Finns deny such provication, and have proven in later decades that the Russian targets were clearly out of the range of their gun enplacements on the Finnish-Russo Frontier.

In the Winter War with the Finns, the Soviet solders (poorly trained in those days and not ready for a war on skis) got their prettythanges handed to them.  The entire Finnish excursion by Stalin turned out to be a major embarrasment.

After Stalingrad, Stalin had learned his lesson.  Beat the Germans by sheer numbers and attrition.  Sure, Hitler was a MORON for not pulling the 6th Army back from Stalingrad before winter set in, but that's what meglomania will do to a person.

The Soviet Union pressed the Germans back by sheer numbers.  They out-produced Germany in tanks, rockets, mines, armor, and solders.  Greater military production + greater numbers = WINS (back then).

The Soviet fighting solder in 1944 and 1945 was a FAR MORE well trained and well equipped soldier than those who fell at the dawn of Operation Barbarossa.  Prior to the Battle of Moscow, rows upon rows of Soviet soldiers went into battle with linked arms....singing...as German machine guns mowed them down.  So much for small unit & platoon tactics.

Ya gotta remember folks...our Russian friends are quoting history from what THEY learned from books written by Soviet historians.

We are quoting historical facts from books and information from our side.

There is a great chasm between the two.

There will come a day in Russia, I believe, where they can enjoy the freedom we do, and along with that comes the learning of the truth of their own past (as we have learned some of the ugly parts of ours).

I got a kick out of the "US Genocide" comment that the United States exterminated America's Native Indian population.  As part Cherokee, I understand that there was a period of time that native peoples believed that the European influx into America spelled the end a way of life as they knew it.  Some tribes accepted their fate and were marched off to Oklahoma, and others (Sioux, Apache, etc) decided to not go away without a fight.

If you believe that all native peoples were "exterminated" in American genocide, please feel free to come to the US, rent an RV, and drive to the Dakotas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Arizona, California, Washington, Michigan, and Minnesota.  

I LOVE being an amateur radio operator.  I have been talking with Russian hams for a quarter of a century, and they are no different than we are.

It was great to go to Washington DC about 8 years ago to show my kids the sights.  Standing in a very long line to see the Declaration of Independance...I happened to notice that about 40 people in front of us were on a package tour....waiting all that time in line...just to see it...they were all from..........Russia.

Things change on this planet...just sometimes not fast enough.

68ROX

[68ROX]

Originally posted by Laurie
A spade's  a spade

Jeesh!  

Laurie, have you ever BEEN to Germany?

Go sometime.

EDUCATE yourself.

(Especially before posting)


68ROX

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Boroda
If you think I seriously meant that in my post - then I really feel offended.

You keep surprising me. Two different cultures, and you still have to understand how different we are. I try, but I usually fail, so what can I expect from people who will find http://www.wowrussia.com a true revelation and source of new information about my country?... Like your compatriots writing in another thread: "27 millions out of 150 lost in a war? How do i know when i was born 30 years after the Victory?!"... Sad.

I fail to find sarcasm out of your post.   He came ashore on Guam straight out of boot camp.   He then watched his buddy die in front of him, but his 5'6" frame carried him ashore.   He turned down a Purple Heart afterwards.     He was only one of million who watched the LVT ramp go down, not knowing if the enemy bullet was gonna hit him.    

Again, claiming "crawling upon some useless god forsaken islands", in any language is horsechit.   I'm sorry I struck a nerve, but you know what, I don't care.   You'll claim to be right and spew enough drivel to try and whitewash the whole thing.    

Cultures, scmultures Boroda, the bottom line is that you never should have typed that crap in the first place.    I'd enjoy to take a trip to Russia and spend a week there, but if the inhabitants are carbon copies of you, no thank you.    

The only thing that makes a Human Being on this Earth different, is how to overcome the language barrier.    Anything else is an excuse.

[Laurie]

Originally posted by 68ROX
Jeesh!  

Laurie, have you ever BEEN to Germany?

Go sometime.

EDUCATE yourself.

(Especially before posting)


68ROX

I have been to Germany.

But I'm sorry to say there are still people in that country, many in fact who persecuted the Jews, waged war with the allies, or sat and watch it happen, all three are as bad as each other.

I have to say i find it hilarious that this guy has given himself such self-righteousness  to start picking fault in countries that were striving to survive under his forefathers actions.

He is trying mock our past and our forefathers actions, maybe he should look back on his own before he decides that we were so terrible. Or is it because he's German he gets some special treatment and bypass to this process?

[Laurie]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I fail to find sarcasm out of your post.   He came ashore on Guam straight out of boot camp.   He then watched his buddy die in front of him, but his 5'6" frame carried him ashore.   He turned down a Purple Heart afterwards.     He was only one of million who watched the LVT ramp go down, not knowing if the enemy bullet was gonna hit him.    

Again, claiming "crawling upon some useless god forsaken islands", in any language is horsechit.   I'm sorry I struck a nerve, but you know what, I don't care.   You'll claim to be right and spew enough drivel to try and whitewash the whole thing.    

Cultures, scmultures Boroda, the bottom line is that you never should have typed that crap in the first place.    I'd enjoy to take a trip to Russia and spend a week there, but if the inhabitants are carbon copies of you, no thank you.    

The only thing that makes a Human Being on this Earth different, is how to overcome the language barrier.    Anything else is an excuse.

This is one of the few times i agree with one of your posts

[Boroda]

Masherbrum, you go nuts when I post a provocative sentence, especially marking it so noone (I hoped) will take it seriously.

OTOH you afford posts that I consider (i still try to be polite) inappropriate.

My Father is a Veteran too, he spent several months at Northern Fleet ships in 1944 - as a practice, he was a Navy cadet. As most of the Russians I have several family members who were killed in a War, survived nazi concentration camps, and simply fought for four years.

Saying that Manchurian Operation didn't help defeating Japanese Empire is silly. Kwantun Army was 1.5 million men, much more then all Japanese forces US met in the Pacific combined.

Now, look: "Allies" promised to open a Second Front in Europe in 1942, and they "delayed" it for 2 years. They interfered only when everything was decided, to get their piece of pie. USSR promised to start hostilities against Japan in 3 months since Victory in Europe, and it kept it's promise. Two Fronts, Pacific Fleet and Amur task force had more power then all the "allied" forces in the Pacific.

You speak about Russo-Japanese War. Tsushima was the greatest defeat of a Russian Navy, but Russia was fighting alone against Japan that was backed up by UK and US, Russian Empire sent it's Baltic Fleet across half of the globe, and fought against the most advanced and experienced navy. Russia was "projecting power" across half the planet, and it was in 1904. Japanese were lucky, and this luck failed in 1941.

Sorry have to go now, will continue from home.

[Elfie]

Saying that Manchurian Operation didn't help defeating Japanese Empire is silly. Kwantun Army was 1.5 million men, much more then all Japanese forces US met in the Pacific combined.

Not quite the fight you seem to think it was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm

Soviet Forces.

The forces totaled at least eighty divisions with 1.5 million men, over five thousand tanks (including 3,700 T-34s), over 28,000 artillery pieces and 4,300 aircraft (including 3,700 first line combat aircraft). Approximately one-third of its strength was in combat support and services. Its naval forces contained 12 major surface combatants, 78 submarines, numerous amphibious craft, and the Amur river flotilla, consisting of gunboats and numerous small craft. It incorporated all the experience in maneuver warfare that the Soviets had acquired fighting the Germans.

Japanese Forces.

Each Area Army (the equivalent of a Western "army") had headquarters units and units attached directly to the Area Army, in addition to the field armies (the equivalent of a Western corps). In addition to the Japanese there was the forty thousand strong Manchukuo Defense Force, composed of eight under-strength, poorly-equipped, poorly-trained Chinese divisions. Korea, which would have been the next target for the Far Eastern Command, was garrisoned by the Seventeenth Area Army.

Also....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwantung_Army

After the outbreak of the Pacific War, many troops from the Kwantung Army were transferred from Manchuria to the Pacific islands. At the time of Operation August Storm, when the Soviet Red Army invaded Japanese-occupied Manchuria in August 1945, the Army's strength was nearly 600,000. The Army by that time was comprised of one armored division, 25 infantry divisions, six independent brigades, and up to 25 security battalions. However, much of its heavy weapons and ammunition reserves and best personnel had been transferred to the Pacific, which left the Kwantung Army as a counterinsurgency and border security force. To cope with the Soviet invasion, the Army planned to form a defense line near Hsinking, which had become the capital of Manchukuo, but Emperor Hirohito ordered them to surrender before the main engagement took place. At this point, historians relate, little remained of the once-proud Kwantung Army. Its remnants either lay dead on the battlefield or were on their way to Soviet Prisoner-of-war camps. Hundreds of thousands of Japanese prisoners of war were forced to work in Soviet labor camps in Siberia, Russian Far East and Mongolia. They were not freed until the 1950s and many of them were forced to stay in Siberia. A notable mutiny of the Manchukuo Defence Force also occurred at this time.

Now, look: "Allies" promised to open a Second Front in Europe in 1942, and they "delayed" it for 2 years. They interfered only when everything was decided, to get their piece of pie.

For starters.....the Western Allies didn't keep land we drove the German army from. It was given back to those it belonged to.

Is Italy not part of Europe? Italy was invaded in 1943. That tied down resources that could have been used against the Soviet Army.

You seem to be implying that the Western Allies didn't do their part. What about the bombing campaign over Germany? How many more tanks, airplanes, artillery pieces etc etc do you think the Soviet army would have had to face if there had been no bombing campaign?

[Gh0stFT]

Originally posted by Laurie

He is trying mock our past and our forefathers actions, maybe he should look back on his own before he decides that we were so terrible. Or is it because he's German he gets some special treatment and bypass to this process?

Looks like someone can't handle criticism...

...as a (present) german, its not allowed for me to judge other countrys past no matter how horrible?
where in this thread did i say something nice about what the Nazis did ?
whats your problem exsactly?
because i'm german?

btw. i live all my live in germany, but my roots are from croatia,
does this change anything now in your view ?

it should not! just accept it, it will not change the past into a better light.

[68ROX]

Originally posted by Boroda
Now, look: "Allies" promised to open a Second Front in Europe in 1942, and they "delayed" it for 2 years. They interfered only when everything was decided, to get their piece of pie.

November 8, 1942, "Operation Torch", Allies invade North Africa and pincer Axis forces from Egypt and Lybia on the East, and Tunisia from the West.  Torch was the largest amphibious invasion in military history up to that time.  (My great-uncle was with Patton's Corp).


July 9th, 1943, "Operation Husky", Allies invade Sicily, bringing the promised "Second European Front", which could not be accomplished with Axis troops running around North Africa.


All the while US and British bomber formations flying missions (USAAF duing the day, RAF at night) bombing tank and airplane factories as well as other strategic targets... and by JANUARY of 1943....hitting Berlin, bringing the war to Hitler's own back yard.

At the same time, US forces "Island Hopped" from the doorstep of Australia to the southern tip of the Japanese Home Islands.




I don't know where you got your history books from Boroda, but if it were me, I'd take them back to the store and get a refund for my hard earned rubles.


<>

68ROX

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Boroda
Saying that Manchurian Operation didn't help defeating Japanese Empire is silly. Kwantun Army was 1.5 million men, much more then all Japanese forces US met in the Pacific combined.

It was an army in name only.

"At the time of Operation August Storm, when the Soviet Red Army invaded Japanese-occupied Manchuria in August 1945, the Army's strength was nearly 600,000. The Army by that time was comprised of one armored division, 25 infantry divisions, six independent brigades, and up to 25 security battalions. However, much of its heavy weapons and ammunition reserves and best personnel had been transferred to the Pacific, which left the Kwantung Army as a counterinsurgency and border security force."

As Oleg Maddox, from Moscow, Russia, says, throw your books away.

A link you should read, http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/RMF.htm

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Boroda
You speak about Russo-Japanese War. Tsushima was the greatest defeat of a Russian Navy, but Russia was fighting alone against Japan that was backed up by UK and US, Russian Empire sent it's Baltic Fleet across half of the globe, and fought against the most advanced and experienced navy. Russia was "projecting power" across half the planet, and it was in 1904. Japanese were lucky, and this luck failed in 1941.

You should really do some research befor you make such statements.

Revistan was built in the US of A.

Tsarivitch was built in France.

The Borodino class was based on the Tsarivitch.

Osliabia was French built.

Many of the Russian ships were modelled after British warships such as the Peresviet class inspired by the HMS Centurion.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by 68ROX
November 8, 1942, "Operation Torch", Allies invade North Africa and pincer Axis forces from Egypt and Lybia on the East, and Tunisia from the West.  Torch was the largest amphibious invasion in military history up to that time.  (My great-uncle was with Patton's Corp).


July 9th, 1943, "Operation Husky", Allies invade Sicily, bringing the promised "Second European Front", which could not be accomplished with Axis troops running around North Africa.


All the while US and British bomber formations flying missions (USAAF duing the day, RAF at night) bombing tank and airplane factories as well as other strategic targets... and by JANUARY of 1943....hitting Berlin, bringing the war to Hitler's own back yard.

At the same time, US forces "Island Hopped" from the doorstep of Australia to the southern tip of the Japanese Home Islands.

I don't know where you got your history books from Boroda, but if it were me, I'd take them back to the store and get a refund for my hard earned rubles.

<>

68ROX

Do not forget about the Murmansk Run.  A ship operation to take crucial supplies directly to russia.  Had the Murmansk Run collapsed, so would have the Soviet Union.  

My grandfather was a captain of a ship in that.