50. Vs. Cannons

[Gibbage]

Originally posted by Viking

3 cm Sprenggranate Übung ohne Zerleger
(Image removed from quote.)

"Practice shell" I see you conveniantly removed that from the description.

3 cm Panzersprenggranate Leuchtspur Übung ohne Zerleger
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"Practice armour piercing high explosive tracer shell with dummy fuze"

Again, you removed this from the description.

3 cm Hochgeschwindigheit Panzersprenggranate Leuchtspur Übung ohne Zerleger
(Image removed from quote.)

"Practice high speed armour piercing shell with tracer."

Again, more removal of the "practice" description.  Hummmm.  

3 cm Sprenggranate Übung ohne Zerleger
(Image removed from quote.)

"Practice high explosive shell"
 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/weapons15.htm

So all the ones NOT practice  shell are MG shells.  I honestly hope you were not trying to decieve me or the forum readers.  But the fact still remains that they only used Mk-108 shells in combat.  I also fail too see any Mk-101 or Mk-103 shells in your list, like what was said above.

[Shuckins]

It matters little how much kinetic energy the MK 108 shell had at the muzzle.  Retained energy at long distance would be of greater importance for this round if its main purpose was similar to that of the .50 caliber Browning, the use of velocity and weight to shred the components of an enemy aircraft.

The purpose of the 30 mm round was to explode on impact with the structure of an aircraft, tearing it apart with explosive blast and shrapnel.

Because of its large cross section (more than an inch), hollow structure to hold an explosive charge, and low initial velocity the 30 mm round will shed energy and lose height faster than a solid projectile such as the .50 caliber Browning.  The .50 caliber has 3,000fps of velocity at the muzzle while the 30mm has only 1770fps.  This means that in the first half-second after the round leaves the muzzle, the 50 caliber has traveled almost 600 feet further than the 30 mm.

With a 200 yard zero, which was a typical way of sighting in fighter weapons during WW II, the 30 mm would be nearly 8 feet low at 400 yards.  The .50 caliber, by comparison would be only two feet low at the same distance.

Regards, Shuckins

[Viking]

Originally posted by Gibbage
"Practice shell" I see you conveniantly removed that from the description.



So all the ones NOT practice  shell are MG shells.  I honestly hope you were not trying to decieve me or the forum readers.  But the fact still remains that they only used Mk-108 shells in combat.  I also fail too see any Mk-101 or Mk-103 shells in your list, like what was said above.

"Übung" means “practice”, so I left nothing out.

There are six different non-practice rounds, and out of those 3 are mine-shells and 3 are incendiary rounds.

I never said the Mk 108 used the same rounds as the Mk 103 and Mk 101 you dimwit. I said the Mk 108 rounds used the same projectiles. A “round” is the projectile and cartridge as one unit. Take a look at this picture from Tony William’s site, note the 30x90RB (Mk 108) and the 30x184B (Mk 101/103). The projectile is the same.

[Gibbage]

Originally posted by Viking
"Übung" means “practice”, so I left nothing out.

There are six different non-practice rounds, and out of those 3 are mine-shells and 3 are incendiary rounds.

I never said the Mk 108 used the same rounds as the Mk 103 and Mk 101 you dimwit. I said the Mk 108 rounds used the same projectiles. A “round” is the projectile and cartridge as one unit. Take a look at this picture from Tony William’s site, note the 30x90RB (Mk 108) and the 30x184B (Mk 101/103). The projectile is the same.

It may look the same, but its whats inside that counts.  Your assuming A LOT, and so far have no proof to back up your claim.  

From this page.

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-am.html

30 mm low-velocity (MK 108)
Minengeschoß 108 El o. Zerl.
Only the Minengeschoß was fired by the MK 108, also in versions with day or night tracer. The ammunition was not interchangeable with that of the much more powerful MK 101 and MK 103, hence the addition 108. The letters El probably indicate the presence of Elektron, an incendiary compound, in the projectiles. Surprisingly, self-destruction fuses were not used, although German fighters were operating over the home country at this time in the war. Probably it was felt that this reduced the effective range too much.

Please find me more proof then wild asumptions of a photo.

In the future, skip the insults.  That is twice now.  There is no need for it, and I came to this forum to find a more friendly place to talk about WWII aircraft.

A quote of the forum rules for you.

"4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated. "

Your NOT very respectful, thats for sure.  Here is another quote.

"6- Members are asked to not act as "back seat moderators". Issues with any breach of rules should be brought to HTC's attention via email at support@hitechcreations.com. "

Back off the insults.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Gibbage
"6- Members are asked to not act as "back seat moderators". Issues with any breach of rules should be brought to HTC's attention via email at support@hitechcreations.com. "

[/B]

It was Ironic, I had the brew, she had the chronic, Lakers beat the supersonics.

-Sik

[Gibbage]

Originally posted by Sikboy
It was Ironic, I had the brew, she had the chronic, Lakers beat the supersonics.

-Sik

I dont think asking him to not insult me is being a backseat mod.  That quote is just me telling him to back off the insults, or I will fallow rule #6 and report it.

[Viking]

For someone who out of sheer ignorance just accused me of omitting data and trying to deceive other posters you should not talk about insults and respect. If Tony Williams drops by I’m sure he’ll clear up this matter in no time. It may even be he who posted about the 108 and 103 rounds using the same projectiles.

[Viking]

Oh, go right ahead. Report me.

[Bronk]

All I'm going to say is " Gibbage, google "tony williams"." Look through his info.


Bronk

[Gibbage]

Like I said, not everyone knows German here.  You posted a list of shells used in the Mk-108 in response to my statement that the Mk-108 only used MG shells.  In the list you posted to dispute my claim, there was practice rounds, but no AP or HE.  The only problem is, in order to know that, you needed to be able to read German.  You have also yet to post any proof that the Mk-108 could fire the AP or HE shells from the Mk-101 or Mk-103, like you said they did.  I did not call you a liar, or accuse you of anything.  All I said is that I hope you did not try.  You, on the other hand, called me a dolt and a dimwit.  I have tried to be very respectful in here.  Please extend the same courtesy.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Bronk
All I'm going to say is " Gibbage, google "tony williams"." Look through his info.


Bronk

Gibbage is pretty much aware of Mr Williams work, he quoted him in this thread

[Gibbage]

Originally posted by Bronk
All I'm going to say is " Gibbage, google "tony williams"." Look through his info.


Bronk

Im using a lot of his info in my post's.  Also this web page http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html is a great resource.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Lusche
Gibbage is pretty much aware of Mr Williams work, he quoted him in this thread

Rgr just trying to be helpful.


Bronk

[Gibbage]

NP.  I have heard of Tony and scanned through his book a few times at the store.  I would LOVE it if he came by to clear this up.  Im sure that none of us are more then armchair experts, myself included.  Im just going by what I find on the web, and the many many post's on forums over the years.  A lot of whats quoted on the web page I linked is from Tony's documents.

[MiloMorai]

As much as I hate to say, I saw no insult from Viking, Gibbage, just some advice.

Did the 108's shell have a detinator that would explode it after a certain time?