Author Topic: 50. Vs. Cannons  (Read 9401 times)

Offline Karnak

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2007, 04:53:41 PM »
Bronk,

Yes, it was.


He is a photo of a Mosquito PR.Mk XVI that was hit by 2 or more 30mm rounds from an Me262:


Keep in mind that the Mosquito's wooden skin and structure was demonstrated to resist cannon fire better than the aluminum most aircraft were made of.
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Offline Viking

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2007, 05:39:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Wasn't the round suspended inside then detonated remotely in that pic?


Bronk



Yes I've heard that too.

Offline Tony Williams

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2007, 09:50:16 AM »
Aha, my favourite subject ;)

if you want to read about the comparisons between .50 and cannon, then THIS article discusses the pros and cons. If you want more technical, direct comparisons between WW2 ammunition, guns and aircraft installations, then THIS gives you all the gen I could put together.

On the specific subject of the MK 108, I can contribute the following: it appears that the MK 101, MK 103 and MK 108 could all fire the same projectiles, although they usually didn't.

The MK 101 was much older than the other two, and usually fired conventional AP and HE ammunition (with projectiles weighing 433-500g), although towards the end of its life it was also loaded with the tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition (355g) for anti-tank use.

The MK 103 was used for two different purposes: first, to replace the MK 101 in the anti-tank role (carried by the Hs 129) in which instance it usually fired the Hartkern rounds (although the ammunition was not interchangeable with the MK 101 - it had the same 30x184B dimensions, but used electric rather than percussion ignition), although sometimes conventional AP; second, to arm heavy fighters for the anti-bomber role, in which case it normally used M-Geschoss ammo (330g shells).

The MK 108 was designed for the anti-bomber role and was, in fact, designed for M-Geschoss projectiles from the start. Judging by the number of surviving examples, the great majority were HEI but some M-Geschoss shell bodies were loaded with incendiary material instead. For some strange reason, a few have been found loaded with Hartkern projectiles.

As far as ballistic performance  is concerned, it is important to note that there were two different shapes of 30mm M-Geschoss shells (both types are found in 30x90RB MK 108 and 30x184B MK 103 cases). The original type, the Ausf. A, had the parallel-sided shell body and blunt nose fuze as already shown - this carried  no tracer. The later Ausf. C was far more streamlined and carried a tracer. It lost a little in HE capacity but retained its original velocity far better: when fired from the MK 108, the Ausf. A had lost 47% of its muzzle velocity at 600m, but the Ausf. C had lost only 26% (for comparison, the 20mm M-Geschoss lost 60%, the 20mm Hispano 43% and the .50 Browning 29%). The Ausf. A is far more common among surviving rounds.

The pic below shows the 30x90RB loaded with the Ausf. C type (the 30x184B being loaded with the Ausf. A):



Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Offline georgh

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2007, 06:08:20 PM »
Quote
Judging by the number of surviving examples, the great majority were HEI but some M-Geschoss shell bodies were loaded with incendiary material instead. For some strange reason, a few have been found loaded with Hartkern projectiles.


Sounds like a dip in QC (of sorts) as the war progressed in the Allies' favour.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #94 on: July 11, 2007, 06:11:33 PM »
Thanks for chiming in Mr. Williams. :)

Offline Stoney74

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #95 on: July 11, 2007, 07:06:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
Aha, my favourite subject ;)


Any information on the nature of the fixed convergence setting described in the luft46 website?  It claims that the convergence of the Mk108 could not be changed after it was installed.  Do you know what that range was and on what airframes it applied to?

Offline Tony Williams

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2007, 01:51:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
Any information on the nature of the fixed convergence setting described in the luft46 website?  It claims that the convergence of the Mk108 could not be changed after it was installed.  Do you know what that range was and on what airframes it applied to?


Sorry, I don't. My specialities are ammunition, guns and ballistics. For installations, you'd do better to ask my co-author, Emmanuel Gustin.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Offline Gibbage

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« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2007, 03:57:18 AM »
One question Tony.  Would you consider the Mk-108 an accurate gun?  Even out to 650M?  Vs that of like an M2 or 20MM Hispano?

Offline Tony Williams

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2007, 04:11:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gibbage
One question Tony.  Would you consider the Mk-108 an accurate gun?  Even out to 650M?  Vs that of like an M2 or 20MM Hispano?


Yes, much more so, in terms of dispersion when range firing, and especially if engine rather than wing mounted (mounting rigidity is an important factor).

However, in action the low velocity means a curved trajectory (so the pilot's range estimation has to be spot-on) and also a long time of flight (so the pilot's deflection estimation has to be spot-on, unless he is shooting from directly behind or directly in front).

So the high-velocity guns were easier to score hits with, even if less accurate in terms of shot dispersion.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Offline georgh

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50. Vs. Cannons
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2007, 04:28:41 AM »
OT: Wow, the same Tony Williams that helped me out at Gunboards (I'm TTengineer there) with US Dixon-based Incendiary variants hovering around Aces High's forums? wow.

On topic: I've always wondered what the Hurricane IID's converted Pom-Pom's were meant for, since they appear to be loaded with HE in AH2. Bomber Busting?

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2007, 04:40:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by georgh
.

On topic: I've always wondered what the Hurricane IID's converted Pom-Pom's were meant for, since they appear to be loaded with HE in AH2. Bomber Busting?


They are not HE. I have busted many a panzer in game with them.


Bronk
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2007, 05:16:43 AM »
The Hurri2D guns are only 40mm, with steel AP shells. They won't penetrate the frontal or side armor of tanks so you'd better go for the rear armor or preferably the top armor.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2007, 05:17:16 AM »
So Gibbage ... satisfied?  ;)

Offline Charge

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« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2007, 04:06:12 PM »


30mm testing.

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Offline Gibbage

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« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2007, 04:28:26 PM »
Yep.  Like I said before, I was lead to believe that the Mk-108 was a very inaccurate gun.