Originally posted by Angus
Ahemm.
[serious voice] Don’t “Ahemm” ME young man! [/serious voice]
Originally posted by Angus
This Mossie has a bulging belly for the cookie. That, for parasite drag, may do more on it's own than some weight in the original (sleeker) airframe. Yet, the top speed numbers are significant.
Yes the top speed numbers are very significant, but also completely irrelevant: I have never ever argued that the bomber, recce or late-war Mosquitoes were anything but faster and better than the Me 410. Karnaks blatant accusation is the crux of this discussion:
Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 had nasty stall characteristics (though not as bad as the Me210), useless tail guns, high wing loading and middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction.
… AT … THE … TIME … OF … ITS … INTRODUCTION
That was the summer of 1943. I have NEVER argued that the Me 410 was superior to the Mossie only that if the Me 410 had “middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction”, then so did the Mossie FB.VI. You see, Karnak’s hypocritical position is that the Me 410 had “middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction” while the Mossie FB.VI did not … even if it entered service at almost the same time and had very similar performance. It is THIS hypocrisy I have been arguing against, and it is this hypocrisy that Karnak had tried time and time again to wiggle his way out of.
Again, just so there is no room for misunderstanding: The bomber, recce, many NF’s, and all 1944-45 Mossies were faster than the Me 410 … even the FB.VI in 1944 since with Merlin 25 engines they could use +25 lbs boost in early 1944.
I am ONLY arguing that in the summer of 1943 the Me 410 did NOT have “middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction”. It was in fact the second fastest twin-engined FIGHTER in the world. Second only to the P-38.
Originally posted by Angus
I didn't look into the weights and wingloadings yet, but regarding this:
"Comparing the Me 410 to any other Mossie then the FB.VI would be comparing apples and oranges. The bomber and recon mossies were highly specialized planes that were streamlined and fitted for maximum speed; it was their only defense. The Me 410 is a multi-role combat aircraft with defencive armament"
I must say:
1: AFAIK the defensive armament in the barbettes was found to be pretty much useless and thereby not worth it's weight.
2: This bomber Mossie is bulged-out to carry a 4000 lbs bomb, as well as a bombardier.
3: As for multi-role, the mossie was merely used for (no particular order) intruding, ground attack, interception, photo reconnicanse, pathfinding, bombing, anti-shipping, secret ops (to Sweden even), and offensive as well as defensive radar equipped night fighting. Guess that is a narrow path with few hours to go compared to the 410.?????
Then I must say:
1. The remote control system was praised by the allies when they captured an intact Me 410. When I get my book I will get back to you on this weapon system.
2. The bulge is long, slender and does not impact top speed much. Comparing with other B Mossies I guessimate a loss of 10-15 mph? The bomber Mossies were still crewed by only two people. The Naviator doubled as the bombardier.
3. Tell me which ONE Mossie could do all that. The Mossie was made in a lot of specialized versions that did only ONE thing. All except the FB.VI. The Me 410 was mostly made in only two versions the A and B series, and they only differed in upgraded fixed armament. The Me 410A/B could with a couple hours of work by the ground crews bomb Britton in the morning with 4000 lbs of bombs, shoot down American bombers during the day using anything in the LW arsenal up to and including the 50mm cannon, hunt ships in the evening with torpedoes and surface radar, and shoot down British bombers at night with cannons and an intercept radar. Of course no Me 410 did all that in one day, but in theory it could be used like that and THAT … makes it Multi-Role. Just because you make a lot of
different, very specialized planes based on the same airframe, does NOT make them Multi-Role. They are all Single-Role. All except the FB.VI that is. (There might be other late-war Mossies that were multi-role though. I don’t know much about them.)
Originally posted by Karnak
Well, according to Viking we can only compare the Me410 to the specific model he selects.
You may compare the Me 410 to Santa’s sled for all I care. It sure won’t make any less sense than your other comparisons.
Originally posted by Karnak
Instead he insists that the high blown Me410 be compared to the low blown FB.VI, but that speeds across the altitude range should not be looked at in any way, but just the top speed at whatever the best altitude is. The fact that the FB.VI does 380-390ish at 14,000ft compared to the 385-395ish of the Me410 at 22,000ft apparently means a lot in combat terms, but the fact that the FB.VI did 340-350ish at sea level where the Me410 did 315-325ish is meaningless.
In Aces High the Mossie’s high deck speed will indeed be important and far from meaningless. Also in real-life it was good for escaping when they did HIT AND RUN MISSIONS. Very little combat took place on the deck … as opposed to 26,000 feet.
Originally posted by Karnak
He absurdly thinks that the 1200 Me410s were more significant than the 2700 FB.Vis…
I have never said that. You’re a liar.
Originally posted by Karnak
Hint, the Me410 isn't ever going to be put in the list of "Best Fighting Aircraft of WWII".
No it sure ain’t no P-47 Mustang! The plane that Won The War™. Of course I have also never seen the Mosquito in any of the “10 best fighters” etc. on Discovery. Probably never will … because it’s no P-47 Mustang either.
Originally posted by Karnak
He completely discounts any reason the RAF might have ordered FB.VIs as fast as they could…
I have never said that. You’re a liar.
Originally posted by Karnak
… and instead insists that, for example, the record of one of the top squadrons in the RAF, 418 Squadron, is "nothing" …
I have never said their record was “nothing”. You’re a liar.
Originally posted by Karnak
By Viking's take, the RAF and Luftwaffe procurment and high commands were both full of drooling morons, the RAF for buying Mossies and the Luftwaffe for canceling the Me410 after less than two years of production.
Unlike you I actually understand the logic behind their decisions instead of your simpleton reasoning. And in spite of your ineptitudes at reading my mind I actually understand why the Germans cancelled the Me 410, and agree it was the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Karnak
The Bf110 was in production until Feb, 1945. If the Me410 was so great, why terminate production of the Me410 while keeping the admittedly lackluster Bf110 in production a full six months longer?
Maybe the RLM found the Bf110 to be more useful?
The Me 410 production ended in September 1944. The Bf 110 still in production was the G-4 night-fighter. The Me 410 was not much used in that role since the Bf 110 was more than adequate for the job, and the Me 410 was needed for day-operations. So instead of converting all the NJG to a new aircraft and stopping Bf 110 production the Germans did the logical thing and ended Me 410 production. This also allowed them to halt DB 603 production (since the other DB 603 powered planes were also cancelled) and concentrate on the DB 605 engine which both the 109 and 110 used.
It is a sad day. I had always thought Karnak was an honest and intelligent person that could see the more complex processes and decision-making that determined aircraft production, fitting and performance. I should have realized sooner that he is a liar and a simpleton.
