Author Topic: Gotta admire ol' dubya  (Read 1818 times)

Offline Viking

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Gotta admire ol' dubya
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2007, 03:46:36 PM »
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Originally posted by Yeager
I cant find anything about him to admire.  Not any more.



I've noticed that you seem to have "seen the light", so to speak. When did this happen and was there a specific event that made you change your mind?

Offline crockett

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Re: Gotta admire ol' dubya
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 03:47:05 PM »
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Originally posted by Hawco
Was watching the News yesterday, Now I'm no Republican or anything like that, but tell you what, after listening to him, that guy has a pair.
He was commenting on the Iraq situation and he said something along the lines of "If the Commanders on the ground tell me we need less troops as the situation warrants it then I'll listen, but not a bunch of polsters telling me to pull troops out"
We all have our views on the President, but after that, he's gone up in my book, kudos to him and well done for not taking any nonsense.


Funny, seems seems the Generals tend to have a diffrent opinion on if he listens to them or not. Seems he listens only if it's what he wants to hear.

Talk is cheap action is where it's at. Bush has a whole lot of talk, but little action to back it up.
"strafing"

Offline McFarland

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Gotta admire ol' dubya
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 03:50:07 PM »
Ay, Reagan was right. Build up your defences, and keep them up. You never know when they will be needed. As for Bush, both his father and him have been terrible presidents.

Offline SteveBailey

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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2007, 04:27:39 PM »
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Originally posted by Guppy35


gotta love revisionist history


Nice try but DENIED.  clinton cut the defense budget several times.  Are you going to deny this?

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2007, 04:35:53 PM »
And yet, almost every criticism leveled at the Bush administration has to do with or stems from the war....and the war alone.

Almost any President who has ever occupied the office would love to have the national economy roaring along the way it is today.  Despite the fact that the military budget is 40% larger than it was before 911 it is still only 4% of GDP.  Considering that this is virtually the same percentage of GDP as we would see during peace time, the inescapable fact is that the GDP has grown by almost exactly as large a percentage as military spending.

A larger and larger percentage of the Black population is moving into middle and upper middle class status.  

Our economy is so strong that it is exacerbating the illegal immigrant problem.  Why else would Mexicans risk the dangers of illegal entry?

If Bush is to be blamed for the "failure" of the war effort in Iraq, then it is only fair to ascribe the booming economy to his tax cuts and other economic policies.

Sure, he's made mistakes, but the level of vitriolic criticism is almost unprecedented in American History.

For that reason, I find myself wishing that he'd resign, for the vociferous opposition is making it almost impossible for him to carry out his duties as president.

He should take Cheney with him, clearing the way for Pelosi to take over.  That way, she would have to carry through on her avowed goals for ending the war, and run the danger of garnishing some of the blame for the consequences of a precipitate pull out.

Then the Dems would have a harder time demagoguing the war in next years' elections.  They can have it their way....and maybe "their" favorite issue will bite them in the ass.

Offline 0thehero

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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2007, 04:59:19 PM »
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What about when the commanders told the administration (Rumsfeld & Wolfowitz at the time) that they needed far more troops for the Invasion and aftermath and General Shinseki got canned. With that environment, I imagine the commanders tell the administration exactly what the administration wants to hear.


Well said.  Shinseki was right, and he paid the price for his honesty.  He's not the only one, either; Lawrence Lindsey was fired for having the gall to say that the war might cost upwards of $300 billion.  

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It couldn't possibly be that the military budget is near historical lows compared to other spending, could it? If that were true, then everyone saying how the war is a financial disaster would be a lying hypocrite?


All irrelevant when you're not asking the current generation of taxpayers to foot the bill for this ideological boondoggle that isn't even in the national interest.  Every supplemental funding request GWB makes doesn't even come from the regular budget or deficit analysis--it's not even real money to these people.  So sure, keep on borrowing; what do you care if your children are paying for the failed campaign in Iraq with a disproportionately increased tax burden and a lower standard of living?

Sure, it's easy to ask if there's a war going on and keep shouting "4% of GDP" when you conveniently ignore that our debt ceiling has been raised how many times by how much in the last six years?  Setting aside Iraq, GWB's demonstrated lack of conservative fiscal policy is what's most disturbing.

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Then the Dems would have a harder time demagoguing the war in next years' elections. They can have it their way....and maybe "their" favorite issue will bite them in the ass.


Did you miss the national referendum this past November?  Keep on whistling through the graveyard, dude.  Iraq is the GOP's albatross and the destruction of the party lies squarely at the feet of GWB.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2007, 05:02:28 PM »
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Originally posted by 0thehero

Did you miss the national referendum this past November?  


ah, yes i did , when was this " national referendum "? All i remember was the mid term elections.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2007, 05:49:59 PM »
Spin it any way you want my man.  The truth of the matter is this;  opposition to the war had its beginnings in hatred of the man in the White House.  Members of the far left have had a fuming hatred for Bush from the very moment he refused to roll over and play dead during the hanging chad controversy.  This demographic group, which is most strongly represented in Hollywood spokesmen and talking heads in the press, has never spoken of him in anything but the most irate and insulting of terms.

This vicious attitude had to be put on hold immediately after 911;  grudgingly I might add.  Yet the aftermath of the invasion of Iraq gave the left something for which they had been desperately seeking:  an issue.  The aftermath didn't have to be a total disaster, it merely had to be less than perfect.  If it was less than perfect, it could be demagogued into disaster.

Failure never looked so appealing.

Anybody with half a brain realized that it would take years to stabilize the situation in Iraq and install a democratic government.  Yet every single problem that cropped up was magnified far beyond its actual importance.  Ninety percent of the news that was reported from out of Iraq was of a negative nature.  This, in spite of the fact that isolated voices of people actually over there and in the know said that the situation wasn't nearly as bad.

The Democrats rode the issue to victory in the congressional elections of 2006, to the applause and scarcely concealed glee of the press and the Hollywood elite.

Now the Democratically controlled House has passed a bill to require the withdrawal of U.S. forces in the spring of next year.  If they muster enough votes to overide a presidential veto, Pelosi and crew will preside over the precipitate pullout of U.S. troops from one of the least bloody conflicts in U.S. history.

We will have lost a conflict in which our soldiers were not bested on the field of battle.  We will have lost it because the enemy defeated out mothers, played us against each other, and took advantage of our inability to stomach prolonged conflict.  They did this by inflicting a relatively small number of casualties on our forces which they knew would be played up in the American press.

If you think our prestige abroad has taken a hit because of the war, wait until the pullout begins.  Our prestige will suffer a blow from which it will take decades to recover.  In that case, we might as well bring all our troops home and never again employ them in an overseas operation, for we obviously no longer have the backbone to use them properly.

Yes, let's bring them home and be done with it.  And hope to heaven our enemies won't follow them home.

Bush has made mistakes.  But he hasn't made them in a vacuum, he's had help and more than a little non-constructive criticism.  

He needs to go, so the rest of us can be treated to the spectacle of the boneless wonders in Congress trying to negotiate peace with our enemies.

That'll be a laugh.

Offline Laurie

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Gotta admire ol' dubya
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2007, 05:55:09 PM »
I have lot of time for bush and all Texans. They have my ideal society in many many ways.




















Get DSL and im there!:lol

Offline 0thehero

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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2007, 06:02:10 PM »
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Anybody with half a brain realized that it would take years to stabilize the situation in Iraq and install a democratic government.


So GWB and crew didn't have half a brain between them all, is what you're saying?  Because they thought it would be a quick and easy cakewalk they could pull off on the cheap (thus, the dismissal of Shinseki and Lindsey for not toeing the line) in terms of men and treasure, and they sure as hell weren't planning on staying four years plus in Iraq.

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In that case, we might as well bring all our troops home and never again employ them in an overseas operation, for we obviously no longer have the backbone to use them properly.


At least we could have the decency to deploy them when the national interest is upheld or at stake.  Neither was the case with Iraq, and opportunities were lost as a result, to say nothing of 3000+ Americans and who knows how many Iraqi civilians.

No one has to spin Iraq, except for GWB and crew who keep trying to tell us how great everything is over there.  If it's so damn great, why don't we leave already?  You can't have it both ways, and you can't paint a t urd.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2007, 06:31:40 PM »
So...if I follow your line of reasoning, what Saddam did within his own country was no concern of ours.  There was no significant threat to our nation interests to warrant an armed incursion.  He could massacre hundreds of thousands of his own citizens but that was insufficient reason for us to become involved.  We are not, after all, our brothers' keepers.

Did you support the deployment of our troops in Bosnia?  What possible threat to the U.S. was represented by those groups practicing ethnic cleansing?  What was the threat to our national interests?  Was that threat more dire than that posed by Saddam?

Every major intelligence agency in the western world believed that Saddam's regime possessed and was preparing to deploy weapons of mass destruction against his enemies.  Clinton believed it.  Gore believed it.  Tony Blair and Chirac believed it.  Yet Bush is condemned as a dunderhead for being the only western leader to advocate military action.

We can't base our foreign policy on the misguided assumption that giving our enemies what they want will mollify them.

Offline 0thehero

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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2007, 07:28:20 PM »
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So...if I follow your line of reasoning, what Saddam did within his own country was no concern of ours.


No more than what Blaise Compaore does with Burkina Faso.  Or any other leader of any other country.  Domestic affairs are just that--domestic affairs.  Saddam was fine inside his own country; stepping into Iran and Kuwait were bad ideas on his part, by any measure.  Our efforts to change the practices of rogue nations are best applied from the outside, using economic levers to gain what we want.  Admittedly, economic sanctions frequently only solidify the position of tyrants, but they can't hold out interminably.  And it's much cheaper than war.

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There was no significant threat to our nation interests to warrant an armed incursion.


That's painfully clear now, isn't it?  Is anyone really, seriously arguing that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the US?

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He could massacre hundreds of thousands of his own citizens but that was insufficient reason for us to become involved. We are not, after all, our brothers' keepers.


We didn't deem it necessary to be involved in Rwanda, the Congo, or today in the Sudan, and rightly so because there was no clear national interest in doing so.

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Did you support the deployment of our troops in Bosnia?


No, simply because if we'd lifted the arms embargo on Bosnia, they'd have eventually solved the problem more definitively by themselves.

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What possible threat to the U.S. was represented by those groups practicing ethnic cleansing? What was the threat to our national interests?


Aside from potential war between NATO members and Serbia (an improbable occurance), there was no national interest there either.  We can't just base foreign policy on the notion of rescuing nations from their own damn leaders.  It rarely works out in anyone's favor.   Does no one else remember GWB stating clearly in televised debates, prior to his first election, that we needed to end the practice of nation-building, a response specifically addressing our prolonged engagement in Bosnia?  We're still there, by the way.  Where is that GWB?

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We can't base our foreign policy on the misguided assumption that giving our enemies what they want will mollify them.


Of course not.  Sherman, set the WayBack Machine to 1994.  WJC made a deal with the North Koreans regarding their nuclear program--widely and rightly criticized at the time--which the North Koreans promptly violated with no further sanctions from the US.  What was accomplished there?  Nothing, at least not for the US or the security of our Pacific allies.

Yet when it comes to force, GWB seems to be following the mantra of, "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."  The US has a lot more than hammers in its toolbag.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2007, 08:02:07 PM »
Sometimes a nail is actually a nail.

Which do you think the victims of genocide in Darfur would find more comforting:  economic sanctions or boots on the ground?

Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2007, 08:25:34 PM »
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Originally posted by Shuckins


Anybody with half a brain realized that it would take years to stabilize the situation in Iraq and install a democratic government.  


Anyone who knew even a little bit about the long history US foreign policy failures in mid east knew there were a-lot more mid-easterners willing to violently reject US troop "occupation" AND any "Western" puppet govt, than we could ever hope to kill / capture or control using the military.

Bush apparently figured generations of hatred would be forgotten and "the people" of the mid east would just fall in line and treat the great satins troops like illegal aliens offering them sanctuary.

Offline Silat

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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2007, 08:34:43 PM »
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Wasn't that a Republican House and Senate while Clinton was in office?

gotta love revisionist history



Dan dont burst their bubble. What would they have if they had to be factual?
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