Taliban threatens South Korea

[eagl]

Seagoon,

I'm not trying to be insensitive, but how could these hostages have possibly gotten into Afghanistan without the full knowledge and expectation that they would be martyred?

Seriously, a bunch of women and 2 men, representing a Christian church, went to a region occupied by numerous groups that think the only good Christian is a dead Christian, in addition to a firm cultural belief that women are nothing more than property.

What possible outcome, other than death, did they expect?

I guess it bugs me that the hostages are begging that everyone do "whatever is necessary" to save their lives (but not by violent means of course), when it should have been blatantly obvious that their current situation was very nearly inevitable.  Being murdered because of their religion by people who justify the murder in the name of their own religion almost defines martyrdom, so I'd think that knowing the situation before they got there, they'd be overjoyed at the chance to get martyred.

I honestly can't imagine that they expected anything different than what they're getting.  It's like locking yourself in your basement, eating rat poison, and then calling 911 begging for someone to save you without damaging the lock you put on the basement door.  WTF?

[FiLtH]

When people put themselves in dangerous situations, and it becomes an incident that could cost many more lives, I find it irresponsible.

[AWMac]

Just hear on Fox that the Afghanistans are staging a rescue mission.

Hope all goes well.



Mac

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Of late, their church Saemul Presbyterian, has been criticized for sending missionaries to such a dangerous place. I do not agree with this criticism, rather I praise God that he still raises up men like Shim who hear the voice of Jesus say: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." and who answer by saying "I will follow" and dying to self they quit comfortable jobs, and take up their cross and serve their Savior in dangerous and difficult circumstances.

In prior centuries, it was understood that becoming a missionary was an assurance of an early death. It was said that the young men and women who served Christ in the mission field went out bearing their coffins with them.

All fine for them to follow their religion and faith.  But, I'm with the opinion on FiLtH and eagl on this one.  Is there any reason to expect anyone else to risk their own lives to go to their aid?  Should countries change their official policies because of what these people chose to do on their own?  
I'm not saying don't try to get their release, but considering who you are dealing with here, I don't expect a good outcome in such a situation.

And considering who has them and their views on women and infidels, those ladies are going to go through all sorts of abuse at the hands of their captors.

[Seagoon]

Hello Tedrbr et al,

Originally posted by tedrbr
All fine for them to follow their religion and faith.  But, I'm with the opinion on FiLtH and eagl on this one.  Is there any reason to expect anyone else to risk their own lives to go to their aid?  Should countries change their official policies because of what these people chose to do on their own?  
I'm not saying don't try to get their release, but considering who you are dealing with here, I don't expect a good outcome in such a situation.

And considering who has them and their views on women and infidels, those ladies are going to go through all sorts of abuse at the hands of their captors.

I actually ended up debating exactly the same point with an intel guy who covers Afghanistan last night.

First, let me say that the problem of aid workers being snatched and held hostage isn't merely a problem for Christian missionaries. Many of you will remember the Irish CARE (UN) official Magaret Hassan who was kidnapped by Jihadis in Iraq, forced on video to plead piteously for her life and then eventually shot. That same scenario has been repeated in countless countries throughout the 10/40 window over the past few years and the answer of many aid organizations to the deaths of its workers has been to withdraw entirely from those countries. Since the 1990s, for instance, the Taliban have systematically driven out the Western aid agencies and Christian missionaries, and by and large those losses have never been replaced (the Islamic world sends them guns, trucks, explosives and new recruits, but not food, aid, and medical help).

Many Christians of late have started adopting a similar opinion - namely that we shouldn't be sending missionaries anywhere dangerous, certain areas should be simply ceded to the devil and we should abandon the people of those areas to his tender mercies. Instead, we are only going to send help to the places where we will be safe, and thus the people who most need assistance and the gospel don't get it. They deserve a chance at life and eternal life as much as we do, and nothing else will change that area for the better other than a radical change of worldview, because worldview is the reason they send us bombs and we send them food and medicine.

This "no danger" policy runs directly counter to the historic practice of Christian missionaries, especially in the first 300 years when the whole world was essentially a hostile mission field. We need to be at least as willing to die to help and serve the lost as the Jihadis are to die killing infidels. The selfless example of those Moravians I mentioned above should be our standard because our calling is not to see how long we can stay alive in this world but how much good we can do for Christ while we are in it - regardless of the personal cost.

All that said, I will not attempt to argue certain things about this scenario. Christ said "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." While I admire their zeal for the kingdom this church did not follow the command to be wise as well as they could. For instance, getting to Kandahar by chartering a civilian bus and driving from Kabul is a sure ticket to accomplish nothing but capture. Also, while having women along in order to work with Afghan women is absolutely necessary, having the group be mostly made up of women was unwise. Additionally, I agree, when our lives are in jeopardy from our service to Christ we should not expect the world to come to our rescue. A friend argued that the coalition forces are in Afghanistan to kill the men holding them anyway, but I acknowledge that it would be far easier if they could do that by taking out the house with a JDAM rather than having to mount a far more hazardous rescue mission. So yeah, when you take up your cross and go to Afghanistan, don't expect to come home alive.

- SEAGOON

[LePaul]

Well Eagler said what I've been thinking for a few days.  

Why do so many of these missionaries insert themselves into regions in strife, then plead for help once they become ensnared?

I know they mean well, but now they've just fueled the enemies cause gaining ransom and news headlines.

[Seagoon]

Hi LePaul,

Originally posted by LePaul
Well Eagler said what I've been thinking for a few days.  

Why do so many of these missionaries insert themselves into regions in strife, then plead for help once they become ensnared?

I know they mean well, but now they've just fueled the enemies cause gaining ransom and news headlines.

I was actually trying to answer that question, amongst others above. I'll admit that my posts should probably come with an executive summary.

Here's the best I can do to produce a one sentence summary of each paragraph on short notice -
--------------
I. Not just Christians but all aid organizations deal with the issues of kidnapping and violence in war torn regions with the result that many organizations pull their presence after incidents.

II. Some Christians have started adopting a "no dangerous areas" policy but that is were the need is greatest and unless heartchanging work is done there, the strife and conflict will never end.

III. Adopting a no danger policy runs against historic Christian practice, our calling, and the aims of the christian life.

IV. When we do go to serve Christ in dangerous areas we do need to be wiser about it than these South Koreans were and we should go in expecting to give up our lives in the work.
------------------

I'll add to the prior summary, that we aren't permitted to simply say to heck with every man, woman, and child in a particular country. Christ came into the world knowing that his own mercy mission to a hostile people would result in his own death and with the exception of John all of his apostles were also put to death for their faith and missionary activity. The servant is not greater than his Master.

- SEAGOON

[LePaul]

Well I understand the sacrifices of helping others.  I truly do.

But...tongue in cheek humor here... couldn't they go in equipped with hidden GPSs and other tracking devices, so we could find them in the event of issues?    Sure makes laying a nice JDAM on the bad guys a bit easier!

[McFarland]

Because the goal of any Christian is not to kill people, but to do good for evil.

[FrodeMk3]

Because the goal of any Christian is not to kill people, but to do good for evil.

True, McFarland. However...

You have to ask yourself, at what point does the toll in human lives justify it? I mean, how many converts to Christianity do you get, vs. The number of dead Missionaries?

Myself...I'd rather keep more good christians alive, rather than kill them for a few that might take the Lord's prayer.

There's other areas of the world that are not so violent, where christian missionaries' would be able to convert without losses.

[lasersailor184]

Again, it isn't our choice of where to send them, but their own.  

This is a "Danger" problem, but a muslim problem.  

For example, I've heard stories about the Seebees during Vietnam.  They were hardly ever touched by the VC because the road / infrastructure stuff they built could be used by everyone.

Where as the muslim problem, they are unwilling to even tolerate the presence of someone different, much less someone who wants to help them with food / medicine.

[Seagoon]

Hi Frode,

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
True, McFarland. However...

You have to ask yourself, at what point does the toll in human lives justify it? I mean, how many converts to Christianity do you get, vs. The number of dead Missionaries?

Myself...I'd rather keep more good christians alive, rather than kill them for a few that might take the Lord's prayer.

There's other areas of the world that are not so violent, where christian missionaries' would be able to convert without losses.

I understand and appreciate your concern, but there are problems with it.

It leaves us with a situation in which certain peoples and nations are almost totally neglected and often these neglected areas are the places that need the gospel and physical and medical assistance the most. Also, more than anything it has helped to create the situation we are dealing with now. Prior to 611 AD, the majority of North Africa, Asia Minor, Palestine, the Balkans, and portions of the Arabian peninsula had been evangelized and had become Christian. Those areas all became part of the Dar-El-Islam via Jihad, and no major attempts were ever made to re-evangelize those areas precisely because mission work in them was a death sentence and converts were put to death in accordance with Sharia law. Since the 19th century, limited works have been done in those areas and there is probably more missionary work progressing in the Dar-El-Islam than ever before, (and unfortunately those efforts are now increasinlgy being targeted and eliminated both by Jihadis and government authorities, hence events like the recent attacks in Turkey, Yemen, etc.)

But unless we are willing to go and quite probably die, what hope does that portion of the world have? Secular aid organizations are willing to help, but not if that probably involves dying in the process, and while these people need food and medicine and clean water, they need much more than that. If we don't change hearts and minds as well, all the problems will continue and the physical aid will quickly be used up. Our response to places like Afghanistan cannot be merely military, and 20 years have shown that simply sending them food and medicine doesn't help. There biggest problem is the hegemony of the Masjids and the Madrassas where the new Jihadis train daily, and which the Saudis are bankrolling. We cannot afford to leave these people in the awful condition they are in...

Anyway, here is the testimony of a Afghan convert on the subject as reported by Compass:

An Afghan convert to Christianity told Compass that local Afghans were not able to differentiate between missionaries and non-governmental organization workers, automatically assuming that all foreigners were Christians.

"For an ordinary Afghan, anyone who is from Europe or America is a Christian," the convert said. He said that before this incident most Afghans were not aware to which religion Koreans "belonged" but now would assume that all Koreans are Christians.

Responding to accusations that the group decided to travel to Afghanistan without heeding travel warnings, the convert said that the aid workers could have been more careful. The Koreans had decided to travel by bus along a dangerous stretch of road to Kandahar when no flights to the city were available.

But the convert said he supported the group's decision to visit Afghanistan and that he hoped the Christian presence in the country would continue.

During the Taliban regime, the main expatriate group in Afghanistan was Christians, " the Christian said. They were here to help Afghanistan ... no one else had the guts to come and help this war-torn country."

He said that Christians were called to serve, at times at a very high cost.

"Thank you for coming to Afghanistan to serve my people," the Afghan said, addressing the hostages and other Korean Christians who had served in Afghanistan. "Thank you for letting the world know, 'Don't forget Afghanistan.' Your Afghan brothers in faith are praying for you daily."

- SEAGOON