Author Topic: A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22 (Read 3739 times)

Halo · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2007, 03:39:22 PM »

It's only a calm discussion about the Free World's most important fighter for the next two decades. No worries!

Bronk · « **Reply #16 on:** July 23, 2007, 03:47:53 PM »

See Rules #2, #5

Bodhi · « **Reply #17 on:** July 23, 2007, 03:48:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nilsen
was that remark aimed at me by any chanse?

No, just the naysayers in general concerning the F-22.

AquaShrimp · « **Reply #18 on:** July 23, 2007, 03:55:36 PM »

I just have concerns for the F-35, which is neither as stealthy as the F-22 nor does it have thrust vectoring. If the F-15 has no chance, even in a Within Visual Range fight, how is an F-35, which has about the same flight performance as an F-16, going to compete against upcoming Chinese and Russian thrust vectoring jets?

expat · « **Reply #19 on:** July 23, 2007, 03:58:03 PM »

ok...not seen any good footage of an F22 doing comparable maneuvers to the Su displays , but and given im not an aerodynamicst..but surely any aircraft flown at those speeds and angles of attack are not flying in the pure sense of the word...ie the wing isnt generating the lift to keep the aircraft up......so im not too happy to accept the su is stalled and the f22 isnt....both aircraft are kept in the air during these maneauvers by thrust control alone.I dont think even an f22 is flying in the pure sense of the word when it is stood still on it's tail or going backwards??????By the way before you all dig out yr hunting rifles , this is not an attack on the f22 of the su for that matter ,just my view on things.
cheers all

expat · « **Reply #20 on:** July 23, 2007, 03:59:35 PM »

if f35 does not have thrust vectoring .....how does it do vtol???

AquaShrimp · « **Reply #21 on:** July 23, 2007, 04:01:15 PM »

F-35 that can do VTOL has a lift fan, and it can rotate its engine nozzle straight down. It can't maneuver the engine nozzle during flight, it can only point it straight down for takeoffs and landings.

expat · « **Reply #22 on:** July 23, 2007, 04:08:06 PM »

has it been tried , i only ask as the idea of "viffing " came to harriers after they got in to service ..

Hortlund · « **Reply #23 on:** July 23, 2007, 04:09:38 PM »

This is an F-18 with a firing solution on a F-22. Apparently thats impossible if we are to believe the pilots analysis.

Nilsen · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2007, 04:13:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bodhi
No, just the naysayers in general concerning the F-22.

I think its healthy to be abit sceptic of military personel issuing stories of how great their new toy is compared to the second best stuff they have.

expat · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2007, 04:16:26 PM »

horlund
that dont count as it's a cherry pick :)and the f22 pilot was afk

Odee · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:08:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund

This is an F-18 with a firing solution on a F-22. Apparently thats impossible if we are to believe the pilots analysis.

Careful anallysis indicates your firing solution is a snap shot at best... no lock on. Hence, no firing solution.

Quote

Expat ...i only ask as the idea of "viffing " came to harriers after they got in to service ..

I could have sworn those two nozzels on either side of the fuselage could be used to VIFF. I know they rotate independtly of the main V/STOL fan, so it's still possible, in theory.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:51:43 PM »

Why is the USAAF version of the F-35 the only one with an internal 25mm cannon? The Marine and Navy versions won't have an internal gun, instead will carry a 25mm gun pod.

ack-ack

eagl · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2007, 06:47:14 PM »

Hort,

That's not exactly even a good snapshot.

Look at the speed, G load, velocity vector of the F-18 (caged low at the bottom of the hud), and the fact that the gun cross and F-18 are not in plane with the F-22. It looks a bit like a no-lock high angle snapshot, with the F-18 pretty much falling out of the sky.

Low PK at best. Yea it's a cool picture and the fact that the F-22 was even threatened at all is a bad thing for the F-22 pilot (heh) but I wouldn't expect the F-22 to be brought down by that shot.

The F-18 can move the nose fairly well, but right there it's over 20 deg nose low (with the velocity vector even lower) so there isn't any way the F-18 can follow the F-22 through that maneuver.

I found a discussion about that pic from back in March... Basically the discussion over there was pretty much the same - it's probably a valid low-PK snapshot. Regarding the comment on how the ranging could be valid even though there is no radar lock... er... I can't talk about radar modes except to say that the displayed range could be correct or incorrect depending on a lot of factors.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/military-aviation/37371-raptors-debut-red-flag-wield-unfair-advantage-3.html

Apparently there are more pics over there too.

As for the "impossibility" of the shot, I don't think anyone ever said that it was impossible, merely unlikely in training and even less likely in a "fair" fight (meaning both sides are allowed unrestricted real-world tactics).

Dago · « **Reply #29 on:** July 23, 2007, 07:56:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund

This is an F-18 with a firing solution on a F-22. Apparently thats impossible if we are to believe the pilots analysis.

I don't supposed it occured to you this might have been taken when they weren't dogfighting and the F22 wasn't trying to win the engagement?

No, not if you don't want to accept that it that possibility.

Probably a photoshop anyway.