Ki-84

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Movie,

I got a film of a 10 minute dogfight/rolling scissors with a very good Ki-84 pilot named maha and me in a F4U-1 , that went on for ever  and a day, last night in the AvsA.....

soon as I find some one to host it and post a link here, I will.......

maybe you can pick up some pointers from his handling of the ki-84.......

as promised, Movie.

here is a film of a ki84 and me in a F4U-1 that seems like the fight last forever and a day....

maha, is the ki84 pilot.. download and watch the film..see if you might can pick up anything on his flying habits.....maeuvering......

hope this helps...or at least is enjoyable to watch.....  ~S~ maha, for  a most awesomely fun fight

http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.ahf

edit: and thanks B@tfink for  posting/hosting it for me  ~S~

[Movie]

thx it helped

[B@tfinkV]

great fight TC, really intense. stalemate for 70%. i think you lost alot of ground very early on and then reversed it very smartly to become you chasing the inside line to fall nose down and guns on the bottom of maha's turns. quickly gainingg advantage over a 3 minute period and almost makin the shots. I thought a couple of times you might have reversed your scissor back over and rolled the opposite way with cut throttle, forced a faster stall to gain a solution. a possibility to end that scissor stalemate, but doing so and failing to disable would have probably ended the fight knowing maha and his ability. maha then reverted his tactics and used the ki's climb rate to perfection. alot of good head on passes with cold guns and the final oil hit a good example of a front quarter deflection that may orten be misjudged and called out for being a head on. at that point in a 10 minute fight any solution that isnt directly head on is more than a good idea to stop your arms falling off.

what i noticed the most was your blatant expert ability to control that hog over the top of your rolls. absolutely perfect stall manouvering and correct rudder/elevator/flap control, so that you never lose an inch of ground flopping about and wasting time/energy. beautifull display from both pilots.

S! great stuff.

[HoseNose]

That fight WAS quite intense. Very good film, I must say.

B@t, I see how climb rate affects one's scissoring abilities, and as you know, the F4U doesn't climb well. Now before you chop my head off, I'd like to ask how the F4U could beat the Ki-84, since for me, Ki-84's are quite annoying.

Edit: When exactly would you reverse that scissors? It seems quite dicey given the back and forth movement.

[B@tfinkV]

in scissors when you are climbing on one side and enemy is diving on the other side, you force an earlier stall but control it to keep the nose where you want it. the goal being to make a drastic enough change in direction during your stall turn, and lose enough speed ie: horizontal travel so that as the enemy come back up his scissor and you start to dive on yours he cant help but be pulling up infront of your guns.
i will try and search out a clip for you.

but, as i said, TC's flying shows the most impressive patience and test of nerve. to keep those stalling barrel rolls so tight for so long is insanely difficult. as i also said maha has excelent ability and you really dont want to be fighting him in his ki84 no matter what plane youre in. attempting to break the scissors up to win a shot is possible, but fail and you've definitely lost. TC held on perfectly in a difficult fight for the f4u, and quite possibly could have made his solutions near the 8min mark a winning move. once ki84 saw this close call it took advantage of the energy TC had had to lose.

so either way, its a very tough call on the f4u if the ki84 is on the job.




edit: also, dont forget to take advantage of the ki84 at mid range speeds that it cannot deploy its flaps. even so a good ki pilot might be working the throttle and trim at those times to combat you back.

[evenhaim]

the pony D pilot shouldnt have all that much trouble with the ki unless he is flying way to slowly, even an experienced pony pilot will be on his toes in a slow speed / stall fight

[Saxman]

Hose:

As noted in the F4U vs Ki-84s you want to keep the fight in a mid- to high-speed range where your high-speed handling is far superior. If you have altitude to work with try fighting nose-low until you get the airspeed you need. If he tries to pull you into a rolling scissors (this also works both in and against ANY aircraft, too) don't try to make a pure pursuit. When you pull up into the vertical don't reverse for the downward leg immediately. Either immelmann out if you have sufficient airspeed, or use the opportunity to get some vertical seperation. Very likely your opponent will now disengage from the scissors in an attempt to regain energy or reposition himself and give you and opportunity to kick inside rudder and nose over right onto his tail (I've used this with great effect against Ki-84s, as well as Spixteens).

The climbing spiral CAN and WILL work in F4Us against Ki-84s, provided you have enough starting separation to bleed off all his E (600-800yds minimum. If he's already in gun range your best option is full power WEP diving spiral to the deck).

As stated: Remember the F4U's first two notches of flaps deploy at much higher speeds than the Ki-84's, and in that moment you WILL out turn him by a significant margin. Time your deployment properly and the first notch should haul your nose around enough for a shot. Just remember he's not going to light up like a Zeke or lose his tail as easily as an N1K2 so you need to give him a good solid burst.

[TequilaChaser]

as that fight between maha and I, drew on........I was beginning to over fly the F4U pushing it ( pushing meaning forcing it more than flying with finese/precision) because I saw where I intially lost alot of ground , in which B@tfink mentioned above, then slowly gained it back to where I finally got a decent shot at him and blew it....once I blew the shot I started looking for the 1st chance to get him rolling away to where I could break and run..to me this is where I messed up.......I gave up on the rolling scissors to soon........

knowing how fast the Ki-84 can accelerate I needed to time the break away perfectly for maximum extending distance, yet I never got past 1.0K before he quickly started to gain on me..this point in the film, maha got smart and started working the vertical on me where he had built his speed back up to do so ( do so meaning going vertical  maneuvering ) to where I  was assuming/expecting us to go back into another rolling scissors. Instead maha begins  hi yoyos or somewhat doing a luffberry maneuver and gains the angles advantage on  me quicker......

what ifs never come to past to see if infact staying with the initial rolling scissors would have paid off for me........I took my 1 chance shot, blew the shot and gave up to try something different,  had the rolling scissors went on  another 2 or so minutes I might have got him / or I might not have...we will never know.......

if you fighting a P51D against a ki-84 you best stay above the 170/180 mph mark.......I would even say you best stay above the 225 mph mark and keep the fight above this speed if you are in the P51D against the Ki-84......if you get slow  like the film shows, the Ki-84 is gonna walk the dog all over the P51D.......if pilots are near equal skill


flying that slow in any plane is not desirable, and is not advised to do so.but how else can you learn what your plane is capable of if you do not test the waters? you just might find yourself in a fight like that at one time or another, and if you have never been there / that slow in a knife fight,  then you will not be there for more than a few seconds the 1st time you get into a situation like that......

thank you B@tfink for the kind words,  and glad others enjoyed the film as well....... but I truly do not believe I flew to my best potential in this film, at time I did, but  at other times I was rushing & forcing the plane instead of flying the plane........I can see it when I view the film anyhow........but that is what "in the heat fo battle" means right?


Note* I do not want to take anything away from maha, he flew a great fight and out flew me, and won....... I just wish for a fight like this at least once a week ............now that would keep me playing til I  leave this place.......


freezman,  I  am trying to understand your post  and what you are saying?
edit: ah yes sir, you're right ,

sorry let me rephrase if the pony has a decent energy advantage and equal pilots the ki is gonna be in trouble. but in a slow fight even a seasoned pony pilot will have trouble against an equal or lesser opponent

maybe have trouble with an equally skilled or similar skilled opponent, not to sure about it if the opponent is of lesser skill.........the ki84 is no zero  or spitfire.......

[evenhaim]

sorry let me rephrase if the pony has a decent energy advantage and equal pilots the ki is gonna be in trouble. but in a slow fight even a seasoned pony pilot will have trouble against an equal or lesser opponent

hope that helps
o and btw well done to the both of you on that fight

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser

I just wish for a fight like this at least once a week ............now that would keep me playing til I  leave this place.......

anytime im online we can go DA or TA some i almost always auger in the MA for a good 1 on 1. cant perform quite as well as maha but i'll give you something difficult to shoot at whenever youre bored.