Gang warfare in military

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Hornet33
I know the Coast Guard doesn't deal with that crap at all. ....... By doing what he did he failed to obey a direct order, defaced government property, and was no longer within uniform regulations. Bye bye...see ya.

Always said the U.S. Coast Guard was the Department of Defense's best kept secret.  Anytime I talk to a kid looking to serve, I point him toward the USCG first.  During peacetime, they get many more real-world missions.  As the USCG also has to be in the public eye far more than most military, such a stance only makes sense.  

Active duty Army is going the other way.  With a war on, "needs must when the devil drives".  Standards are being lowered, if not "officially".  Pressure is on recruiters to meet goals, so corners get cut.  There are instances where ASVAB scores have been altered for recruits.  Tattoo policy has been greatly relaxed in the Army.  Basic training curriculum is better now, but the discipline is starting to really slide in BT and AIT in some cases.
After 9/11 the monthly random urinalysis went the way of the dodo bird for many units.  Between 2003 and 2006 I think I was tested twice, when before that I was getting pulled 6 to 8 times a year for a sample.  
Training is suffering.  A lot of money diverted from everywhere else to support combat operations while Congress played with defense appropriation bills.  Education for NCO's is suffering, and I don't agree with promoting to Corporal or buck Sergeant with no schooling at all, but that was the change in 2003/2004.  

And most of us to recognize that there are serious problems in the military among some of it's members.  If there is good leadership, it can often get dealt with.  But, it is a numbers game, and it's fine for a CO Commander to want to get rid of a problem child, but the approval usually comes from higher.... and to higher it is more often than not about end strength numbers than the effect on the unit.  
Racism, hazing, theft, bullies, slackers, anti-social personalities..... "Settle down, Francis".... you get all kinds in among the troops, and it doesn't begin or end with "gangs".  You hope that the group dynamic, comradeship, and leadership can effectively deal with it --- but it doesn't always happen that way.

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by wooley
I have no idea what the extent of the 'gang' problem is within the US forces. But I do know that gang units in police forces across the country do track the military experience of gang members.

                   We have so many tens of thousands of gangbangers where I work we couldnt track them with the Super Blue computer.

[LTARokit]

Originally posted by Hornet33
And that study is supposed to indicate what??? That there are people in the military that have no problem with killing the enemy?? So what. This thread is about gang violence in the military and you stated in your earlier thread that at least 6-10% of troops are murderers. I told you that you were wrong and I stand by it. I also stand by my statement that you need to serve before you can accurately comment about life and people in the military. On this subject your book education doesn't matter a damn bit.

You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.

You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.

By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this. My life experiance in the military has taught me more than I will EVER learn sitting in a classroom reading a book, so I'll say it again. Put on the uniform and live the life before you go commenting on the men and women that serve this country. It's real easy to sit back and toss out links from some bull**** studies that have nothing to do with the topic and pull some random figures out of your butt. It takes a real man to put his money where his mouth is and soilder up. Of course we all know your not a real man so I suppose that whole point is moot.

The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.

Salute!

[USRanger]

Hooah!:aok

[storch]

Originally posted by Hornet33
And that study is supposed to indicate what??? That there are people in the military that have no problem with killing the enemy?? So what. This thread is about gang violence in the military and you stated in your earlier thread that at least 6-10% of troops are murderers. I told you that you were wrong and I stand by it. I also stand by my statement that you need to serve before you can accurately comment about life and people in the military. On this subject your book education doesn't matter a damn bit.

You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.

You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.

By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this. My life experiance in the military has taught me more than I will EVER learn sitting in a classroom reading a book, so I'll say it again. Put on the uniform and live the life before you go commenting on the men and women that serve this country. It's real easy to sit back and toss out links from some bull**** studies that have nothing to do with the topic and pull some random figures out of your butt. It takes a real man to put his money where his mouth is and soilder up. Of course we all know your not a real man so I suppose that whole point is moot.

The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'll take this as you "support Gangs within the United States Military."   If you CANNOT understand the "definition of gangs" mentioned BOTH in the article AND the same interpretation by Dago, we cannot help you.

What "We" do you represent here professor?
I`ll take it that you do not understand what was said period.
Like I said, if I need anything from you....I`ll call.
Don`t hold your breath.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Hornet33
And that study is supposed to indicate what??? That there are people in the military that have no problem with killing the enemy?? So what. This thread is about gang violence in the military and you stated in your earlier thread that at least 6-10% of troops are murderers. I told you that you were wrong and I stand by it. I also stand by my statement that you need to serve before you can accurately comment about life and people in the military. On this subject your book education doesn't matter a damn bit.

You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.

You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.

By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this. My life experiance in the military has taught me more than I will EVER learn sitting in a classroom reading a book, so I'll say it again. Put on the uniform and live the life before you go commenting on the men and women that serve this country. It's real easy to sit back and toss out links from some bull**** studies that have nothing to do with the topic and pull some random figures out of your butt. It takes a real man to put his money where his mouth is and soilder up. Of course we all know your not a real man so I suppose that whole point is moot.

The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.

Three cheers.

[Maverick]

Shrimp,

To call you an educated idiot would be an insult to the educated. Not all that have an education are so blinded by their exploits in a classroom, as you seem to be, that they can't see the real world.

Do you have any concept that combat is not natural for the average "Western" human being? Don't you understand that a society that places a value on human life and indoctrinates their members would consider a person who has participated in and lived through combat to be somewhat off of the "norm"? Those that were on the front line and had to make a decision to shoot another human being know it's not an easy decision to make. Your article discusses that aspect rather plainly.

It's real easy to describe the concept to one who has never been in a true life and death struggle but it's also impossible. It's like describing the color orange to a person who is totally color blind. They "see" but cannot really appreciate what that color is.

Frankly you have as much credibility regarding the military and combat as mcfarland does in discussing ballistics, which is none.

Hornet did an outstanding job of putting it in writing. I'm afraid my own efforts wouldn't be as eloquent. You really need to learn when to STFU and listen to your elders and betters.

Education is gaining the benefit of the experiance of others without having had to go through the experiance yourself. You've forgotten that aspect of education and assumed that you "know" something about which you have had no experiance. It is a faulty assumption.

You should also not assume that a person who has been in combat, or is serving in the military is not educated.

[Kermit de frog]

Dago said, "Here is an easy one: Make gang membership a capital offense, and carry out the punishment."

Then:

Jackal1 said "define gang"

Then Masherbum and Dago both got angry and missed the point Jackal had.  Someone else has already pointed out what I'm saying in this thread.

Dago, please post your definition of "gang" that you'd like congress to use to determine if you are a gang member or not.

I guess jackal is hoping you can't and therefore your statement should be passed off as something said stupidly.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Hornet33
You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.

What the heck does that have to do with him having read studies that support his claim?  Nothing.  You are appealing to emotion and rhetoric.  Do you have anything substantive to support the claim that 99% of military personal are upstanding citizens?  Have you conducted any scientific polls of military personal during your employment with them?  Have you studied the issue and/and any documents related to it?  Or are you just going to rely on being pissed off to carry the arguement?

You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.

It may or/may not make you it murder, it definitely doesn't disqualify you for being a fool, but it definitely does make you an appealing to emotion, rhetorical windbag.

By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man,

Yeah, because being about to do Fourier transformations is so germain to understanding the issue on the table.  



PS:  I'm totally not surprised that people are cheering Hornets puffed up rah-rah anecdotal post, and totally freaking ignoring eagl's quiet and contained anecdotal post that complete disagrees with Hornet's.

[Maverick]

Thrawn,

I notice you have provided no study or material to support the "puffed up" post from shrimp.

Shrimp did not post a study at all to support his claim. What he did post didn't support his stated position.

You mention the "anecdotal post" from Eagle as support yet totally dismiss the "anecdotal post" from Hornet. Why is that? Is it because one of them supports your distrust and dislike of the US Military perhaps? Would that be a case of allowing emotional rhetoric to provide your support on your part? You certainly didn't provide any indication that you did any research.

Your quip about Hornet doing Fourier transformations was so nice there. By that you dismiss his previous career in the field as inconsequential experience.

Since you provided nothing, including actual experience in the organization in question , the US Military, other than scorn I suppose this quote of yours applies., It certainly seems as if you qualify as an "appealing to emotion, rhetorical windbag".

[Shuffler]

Originally posted by Atoon
I went back and reviewed the report, and also my post. I need to include that Jawon died from injuries sustained at his initiation, thus making the story news-worthy. And at the time of his death, his son was not yet born.

So if I understand correctly this guy died during a ritual to join a gang? If he was joining a gang and died.... they should just ignore it. Gang members killing gang members take up too much resources, as long as no innocent folks were harmed or were in danger, ignore it.

[FrodeMk3]

So if I understand correctly this guy died during a ritual to join a gang? If he was joining a gang and died.... they should just ignore it. Gang members killing gang members take up too much resources, as long as no innocent folks were harmed or were in danger, ignore it.

That would normally be true for civvy street, shuffler, but I doubt that the military wants even the smallest breach of discipline. The JAG should do their utmost, to ruthlessly stomp out any and all signs of organized crime/gang activity in the ranks.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Shuffler
So if I understand correctly this guy died during a ritual to join a gang? If he was joining a gang and died.... they should just ignore it. Gang members killing gang members take up too much resources, as long as no innocent folks were harmed or were in danger, ignore it.

I have to dissagree. Finding and prosecuting these sweethearts has to be a priority. Whether they make up 1% or 10% of the force, there is no place for these *******s in my Navy (or anyone else's service either).

-Sik

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by Thrawn
What the heck does that have to do with him having read studies that support his claim?  Nothing.  You are appealing to emotion and rhetoric.  Do you have anything substantive to support the claim that 99% of military personal are upstanding citizens?  Have you conducted any scientific polls of military personal during your employment with them?  Have you studied the issue and/and any documents related to it?  Or are you just going to rely on being pissed off to carry the arguement?

It has everything to do with it. Reading about something and actually living it are two very different things. He can read all he wants about combat and the people that were in it but he'll never understand what it's like to actually be there. I can because I have been there. Yes it's an emotional response because that is what combat is....an emotional response. Kill or be killed. It doesn't get any more emotional than that.

As far as the 99% being upstanding citizens. What could be more upstanding as a citizen than VOLUNTERING to serve your country and willingly put your life on the line for it's protection and the protection of it's citizens? I never claimed that everyone in the military is a saint. But we're not all a bunch of raving maniacs either. Again you have to serve to understand the culture that is developed in the military.

Originally posted by Thrawn
It may or/may not make you it murder, it definitely doesn't disqualify you for being a fool, but it definitely does make you an appealing to emotion, rhetorical windbag.

Right back at you sir.

Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah, because being about to do Fourier transformations is so germain to understanding the issue on the table.

And his education is what?? What does the type of degree have to do with being educated? That is Auqashrimps whole point in any of these discussions. He has a college education so he knows everything and he can find out anything he needs just by reading about it. Well I have a college education as well but in my case I choose to use my experiance before anything I read in a book.

Originally posted by Thrawn
PS:  I'm totally not surprised that people are cheering Hornets puffed up rah-rah anecdotal post, and totally freaking ignoring eagl's quiet and contained anecdotal post that complete disagrees with Hornet's.

I saw Eagles post and do not disagree with anything he said. His experiance has shown something I personally have not seen. However my responses have been towards Aquashrimp who has in the past shown a total lack of respect for anyone or anything having to do with the military. I have suggested to him in the past to join up and learn about it first hand before he passes judgement and his response has always been the same. "I didn't go to college to be some knuckle dragger that can't do anything else in life"  While that might not be the exact quote it's very close to something he posted in anouther thread awhile back replying to me on anouther military subject where he was bashing the military.

My responses may be puffed up and rah-rah but when it comes to people putting down MY fellow soilders, sailors, airmen, and marines. People I have fought beside, sailed with, and spent my entire life being around and working with, you bet your bellybutton it pisses me off. Why shouldn't it? My experiance has shown me that the men and women that serve are, for the most part, very good people that joined the military for a noble purpose. You bet I'm going to back them up anywhere, anytime, for anything. That's the brotherhood of arms. That's what being in the military is all about. You cover your buddy knowing full well that your buddy is going to cover you.