Getting someone OFF Your six

[CAP1]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
heya latrobe, dont know if this will help but i like to call it a vertical overshoot. two examples in this quick .ahf film, both of which the enemy are impossible to out run and within lethal range on our tail when the manouvers are attempted.

this works well as a one timer for almost any planes especially cannon equiped. It can also be a very quick way to find out that the enemy is a good pilot and youre going to die anyhow

this example also shows how it is not the plane, but the manouvers and persons in control of any given fight. here a 262 forces a Spit16 to overshoot from 400 yrds and co-speed. the spit should not ever let that happen you say, but its amazing how many times it will work if you let them think youre going to be an easy kill and manouver as they open fire.

Film Link

S! good hunting.

ok..htis is gonna sound dumb....but it may help some of us........i watched this film.......saw the maneuvers u did to cause the overshoot of the spit, and the pony when u were in a nik........but........is there any possibility that you remember what you did inside the aircraft during these maneuvers? i mean like throttle management, whether or not you were cross controlled at any time, etc?

thanks!!
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john

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Flatbar
All these suggestions are great and will help fighting with someone on your 6.

However, in the LWMA's, you'll hardly ever find yourself trying to fend off a SINGLE attacker on your 6 if you are on the deck. Most times you'll more likely to find 3,4 or many more on your 6.

Trying to cause an overshoot when there's half a dozen enemys on your 6 isn't the best maneuver. IMO. Actualy, I don't know what would be the best maneuver other than purposely augering and sending a one finger salute to all involved.

In the LWMA environment I think it's best to maintain a good sense of your SA to keep the above scenario from playing out.

I find myself in that situation ALL of the time.  I'm a masochist with no regard as to where I dive in sometimes.  Unfortunatley, once there I usually decide I want out.

When that happens I usually break into a run, dragging multiple cons.  It doesn't matter if they are faster, slower, turn better or worse, I find random rolls, half rolls, barrel rolls and half barrels to be quite effective in making them miss with the occasional mild break turn thrown in for good measure.  The key is to be unpredictable and remain out of plane with the nearest pursuer(s).

I've dragged 5 and 6 cons for over a sector this way and actually gotten home to the field ack doing it.  I've also watched guys spray off their entire clips trying to get a hit on me, sometimes multiple guys, then break off frustrated.

Half the time I get proxie kills on guys augering behind me or I get an overshoot for a kill along the way.

I don't always survive this but whether I do or not I always end up with a big smile on my face after one of these chases.  I just LOVE frustrating my opponents.

[RedTop]

Originally posted by Latrobe
I have been playing Aces High for over a year now and have learned some good tactics to use in dogfights. Recently I have noticed that i die the most when I'm in a 1on1 and the enemy gets on my tail. I'm fairly good when I have a wingman that can help me out even in a 2on2. Out of all I know I don't really know any good tactics to make them overshoot so I can get on their six. Can someone teach me some good maneuvers to get someone off my six in a 1 on 1?

Training arena will your best bet....and looking at the films provided here in this thread.

I personally have NO idea about ACM.....OR what I should say...what move is what...I just try things...copy to a point what I see.

Youll learn by doing and failing...then getting better and better.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by CAP1
ok..htis is gonna sound dumb....but it may help some of us........i watched this film.......saw the maneuvers u did to cause the overshoot of the spit, and the pony when u were in a nik........but........is there any possibility that you remember what you did inside the aircraft during these maneuvers? i mean like throttle management, whether or not you were cross controlled at any time, etc?

thanks!!
<>

john

im not so good at explaining things but best i could say is that we are trying to dump as much speed as possible cutting the power and pulling up. the enemy must be closing slightly on us already or they wont likely fall for it. as for controls its pretty simple, the roll in the 262 is intended to be a tight barrel just enough to spoil thier aim, flown with elevators and rudder more than ailerons(also helps to burn off speed).  the manouver in the 262 was desperate and should not have worked so well, but try something unlikely and its better than sitting there and getting shot anyhow trying to run.

the nik clip again shows the first atempt on a reversal that goes badly wrong. had the P51 flown smoother it was an easy shot to rip our wings off. p51 misses and overshoot and we also miss. situation reset. dont chase him or he will just extend untill safe. we make the assesment that the p51 isnt having a great day for gunnery and the second manouver makes certain he either has to kill us or get shot at himself. BUT only because he takes the bait.  

never trust an enemy that you know is letting you have thier tail, if you see a good reversal performed on you and you survive, dont make the mistake again. either slow right down and commit to saddle up, or keep your speed up and turn away from the enemy, not back up or into him.

[BluKitty]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
never trust an enemy that you know is letting you have thier tail, if you see a good reversal performed on you and you survive, dont make the mistake again. either slow right down and commit to saddle up, or keep your speed up and turn away from the enemy, not back up or into him.

Good advice   ...

Best way to learn is to go up and fly around looking for higher cons... try to get them to attack you, then shoot them down

Once you get the basic principals down, maneuvers will make much more sense to you.  They should be second nature really.  Just work on understanding what Spatula said, and remember... your goal is never to turn, or simply evade-The best way to live is to kill the plane on your 6.

Don't turn, or simply evade.... evade while setting a con up, but plan to drop back into their flight path as they overshoot.  You never want to move farther, or waste more energy than you must, this takes watching the enemy...Keep your eye on the ball.    I could go on and on.... Spatula did a good write-up already though

[Latrobe]

All of this is great advise thank you guys very much I shall try these tactics out and train so i can be as good as i want to be.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
im not so good at explaining things but best i could say is that we are trying to dump as much speed as possible cutting the power and pulling up. the enemy must be closing slightly on us already or they wont likely fall for it. as for controls its pretty simple, the roll in the 262 is intended to be a tight barrel just enough to spoil thier aim, flown with elevators and rudder more than ailerons(also helps to burn off speed).  the manouver in the 262 was desperate and should not have worked so well, but try something unlikely and its better than sitting there and getting shot anyhow trying to run.

the nik clip again shows the first atempt on a reversal that goes badly wrong. had the P51 flown smoother it was an easy shot to rip our wings off. p51 misses and overshoot and we also miss. situation reset. dont chase him or he will just extend untill safe. we make the assesment that the p51 isnt having a great day for gunnery and the second manouver makes certain he either has to kill us or get shot at himself. BUT only because he takes the bait.  

1)i'm glad u mentioned this, as i meant to ask about it also........when i noticed that you didn't continue the chase, but rather let him see you turn off.....then i saw him grabn alt an come back at ya.......when i try this, i almost always die...but i am gettin better since i've finally started commin to LW though.

never trust an enemy that you know is letting you have thier tail, if you see a good reversal performed on you and you survive, dont make the mistake again. either slow right down and commit to saddle up, or keep your speed up and turn away from the enemy, not back up or into him.

2) this is another one i have trouble with.......how do you tell if someone's lettin you have their tail?

thanks again batfink<>

john

[redman555]

the thing about that slide thing tho is u gotta relize it was real life... there is wind, possable rain, temperature the piolet, stuff like that, in game tho there is none of that, but i do think it would b cool if HTC could make it so it would rain, snow and so on.

[B@tfinkV]

well thats the tough part cap, and telling you the exact thought process i go through to make myself look a juicy target would cut off part of my game plan that i would have to rework:D more importantly my answer would be useless fighting anyone but me as everyone flies differently, baits differently, and thinks differently.

one hint on the most basic level, as blukitty says, is 'try to get them to attack you'. so if you see someone start a shallow diving turn subtly as you get to about 1k-800yrds, there is a very good chance they have seen you and are waiting to spoil your shot with the next manouver, which might also be the last manouver. this behaviour would denote a more experienced furballing type player who is 'givein me their tail'. the less experienced at turn fighting often break much earlier even before 2000yrds giving the attacker much longer to readjust aim and make a good gun solution. even if the attacker misses the shot in this scenario the less experienced defender is usualy now flying an opposing direction and needing to use up even more speed to turn and face the next attack.

the basic priciple that must be broken is that you are 'turning' onto an attacker's six. the harder advanced principle being that its much quicker, safer and effective to decelerate onto an attacker's six

S!

[jerkins]

I like to get into a rolling scissors.  Lets you keep your speed, while most pilots in the MA will try to slow down to prevent overshoot.  If they slow down, they are usually dead. you can use the vert to slow you down, and wingover right onto them.  Maybe this is a bit of a modified rolling scissors.  I think there is a good example of this at the trainers web site.

[Balsy]

Originally posted by CAP1
2) this is another one i have trouble with.......how do you tell if someone's lettin you have their tail?

thanks again batfink<>

john

If their name is greebo or blukitty, then you know for sure.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
well thats the tough part cap, and telling you the exact thought process i go through to make myself look a juicy target would cut off part of my game plan that i would have to rework:D more importantly my answer would be useless fighting anyone but me as everyone flies differently, baits differently, and thinks differently.

one hint on the most basic level, as blukitty says, is 'try to get them to attack you'. so if you see someone start a shallow diving turn subtly as you get to about 1k-800yrds, there is a very good chance they have seen you and are waiting to spoil your shot with the next manouver, which might also be the last manouver. this behaviour would denote a more experienced furballing type player who is 'givein me their tail'. the less experienced at turn fighting often break much earlier even before 2000yrds giving the attacker much longer to readjust aim and make a good gun solution. even if the attacker misses the shot in this scenario the less experienced defender is usualy now flying an opposing direction and needing to use up even more speed to turn and face the next attack.

the basic priciple that must be broken is that you are 'turning' onto an attacker's six. the harder advanced principle being that its much quicker, safer and effective to decelerate onto an attacker's six

S!

ya know what...i actually wasn't looking at it that way, but do fully understand.........

one thing u mentioned above just hit me as one of the mistakes i might be making.......it seems that if i let someone into the 400-600 range, i get shot to crap BEFORE i try anything....so i've been doing things when i see nmy at a min of 1k.......this is probably still enough time for them to adjust, isn't it?
thanks again dude!



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john

[RedTop]

Originally posted by CAP1
ya know what...i actually wasn't looking at it that way, but do fully understand.........

one thing u mentioned above just hit me as one of the mistakes i might be making.......it seems that if i let someone into the 400-600 range, i get shot to crap BEFORE i try anything....so i've been doing things when i see nmy at a min of 1k.......this is probably still enough time for them to adjust, isn't it?
thanks again dude!



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john

Hi Cap,

BAtfink is someone you should hook up with sometime in the DA or TA for a couple of moves or evasives. HE is really a good stick and loves to teach people. Not to mention he is my squaddie and I have learned a thing or 2 from hime. I can't do em right , but I have learned plenty.

[Spatula]

Originally posted by Balsy
If their name is greebo or blukitty, then you know for sure.

If you know they are Kitty et al in advance, get out of there. There are easier targets out there Unless of course you want a lesson.

[Patches1]

Never run from a fight against these two players. Both will teach you alot
in just a few shorts seconds.

When you encounter either of them...turn on your Recorder...and later...
study the film to see how they do what they both do so very well.

Both are Classy Pilots!